I also keep wondering what's really up here. There is a cognitive dissonance for me between what the comic is showing me and what Meltzer, Jeanty and Allie are talking.
The comic itself gives of a Ted-feeling in waves. Something is very wrong here. We're seeing a massive subversion of Bangel that brings many of it's underlying problems (Angel's making decisions for Buffy)to the surface, that they know each other so little anymore, that the author has to get them together with alien sex pollen.
And yet the crew tells us, that's actually meant to be romantic. I'm not ready to write of like that, but if they really mean that, they've lost all feeling for the show.
Something is very wrong here. We're seeing a massive subversion of Bangel that brings many of it's underlying problems (Angel's making decisions for Buffy)to the surface, that they know each other so little anymore, that the author has to get them together with alien sex pollen.
I have the impression that the audience that analyzes and dissects the comics is too clever to perceive them the way they're supposed to be perceived. "It can't be that dumb! There must be some hidden meaning in it!"
And yet the crew tells us, that's actually meant to be romantic. I'm not ready to write of like that, but if they really mean that, they've lost all feeling for the show. I think that Meltzer's feeling of the show is very... ahem... special. He clearly adores the nerdy aspect of it. He revels in the scenes where Buffy tests her superpowers. He loves Andrew and it looks like he even wants to redeem Warren. But his romantic scenes are bland so he switches to sex and relegates the
( ... )
"It can't be that dumb! There must be some hidden meaning in it!"
I think that's what's getting people. At the end you're asking yourself "Well, what the hell was the point of that?" All the retcons, all the character butchering, all the silliness, it all comes down to this? So far, there's really no reason at all for this story to be told, especially with these characters.
I think we read the book rather differently. I'm basically with stormwreath in thinking Angel wasn't consciously lying when he told Buffy he didn't kill anyone. It's literally true and what he says about both demons and governments being on the warpath, in spite rather than because of anything the masked man said or did, is consistent with what's been shown in previous issues if you go back and look at them carefully. One advantage of the comics medium is that it's very easy to do that, a reader can process comic time like Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. This doesn't mean that I think Angel was right, I think he could have acted differently maybe by trying to set up negotiations rather than manipulations but that would have been very out of character for Angel
( ... )
I added the link to your entry. I will read and comment soon.
I think we read the book rather differently. I'm basically with stormwreath in thinking Angel wasn't consciously lying when he told Buffy he didn't kill anyone. It's literally true and what he says about both demons and governments being on the warpath, in spite rather than because of anything the masked man said or did, is consistent with what's been shown in previous issues if you go back and look at them carefully.
You may be right. Maybe it's one of suspension-of-disbelief moments. I mean, in real life, when a man finds out that the girl he loves is in danger, he warns her and/or helps her directly. But in genre fiction heroes sometimes make a lot of illogical steps to create intrigue and tension.
I think Buffy believes Angel when he said the killings weren't his doing in particular I think she believes him when he says that her changing the world is what caused the backlash.The question is, is it true? Was it Buffy and Willow's spell that eventually brought the
( ... )
Meltzer's heroes are defined by the traditions of the romantic genre where love rules supreme.
Or so it would appear, until you get halfway through 8.35 and Buffy turns around and says "I never do what I'm meant for" and walks away from her "destined true love" back to her friends instead.
I can't help but think the exchanges where he tries to say her friends will be fine is either just extremely bad writing or he's still plainly trying to manipulate her. There's no logic there whatsoever. For all the buildup, Angel backs down quick as lightning.
"because I, the author, say so, and use the universe as my substitute".
I have wondered if the "Universe" is supposed to represent the audience and/or the authors and if the rather acerbic tone toward women the comics are told in is Joss's way of offering commentary on the common view of comic writers. But I think that's just my brain looking for things that aren't there, though there was the Duck Amuck shout-out.
Aside from the consent issues, I think the biggest fail ever is the retcon of the entire 'verse. It's just so big, bad and completely unbelievable that it ruins any credibility the story itself had (not that it had much to begin with). If we're supposed to take it seriously, it just proves that the writer(s) haven't actually watched much of the show.
I can't help but think the exchanges where he tries to say her friends will be fine is either just extremely bad writing or he's still plainly trying to manipulate her. There's no logic there whatsoever. For all the buildup, Angel backs down quick as lightning.
But of course he does! He's a girl who wants to marry a superhero. He dreams about happy life, but, being a good girl, he lets a superhero convince him to sacrifice their love on the altar of duty.
I just don't feel hopeful because of the tone of everything about the comics. Spike is part of IDW as well and unlike Angel and the curse (though... yeah will it ever get a mention in the comics?) there's nothing keeping them apart. I think the best we can hope for is another "maybe when..." and then something happens keeping them apart. I'm 100% sure that Joss will keep the status quo because he intends to bait shippers and milk that triangle forever. So we'll get some vague promises when Buffy will be saying goodbye to both vampires who'll go back to IDW
( ... )
Actually sounds pretty accurate on both Bangel and Spuffy ships, the willingness to completely overlook or justify the appalling behaviour of both vampires and the Slayer.
Comments 293
I also keep wondering what's really up here. There is a cognitive dissonance for me between what the comic is showing me and what Meltzer, Jeanty and Allie are talking.
The comic itself gives of a Ted-feeling in waves. Something is very wrong here. We're seeing a massive subversion of Bangel that brings many of it's underlying problems (Angel's making decisions for Buffy)to the surface, that they know each other so little anymore, that the author has to get them together with alien sex pollen.
And yet the crew tells us, that's actually meant to be romantic. I'm not ready to write of like that, but if they really mean that, they've lost all feeling for the show.
Reply
*huggles you*
Something is very wrong here. We're seeing a massive subversion of Bangel that brings many of it's underlying problems (Angel's making decisions for Buffy)to the surface, that they know each other so little anymore, that the author has to get them together with alien sex pollen.
I have the impression that the audience that analyzes and dissects the comics is too clever to perceive them the way they're supposed to be perceived. "It can't be that dumb! There must be some hidden meaning in it!"
And yet the crew tells us, that's actually meant to be romantic. I'm not ready to write of like that, but if they really mean that, they've lost all feeling for the show. I think that Meltzer's feeling of the show is very... ahem... special. He clearly adores the nerdy aspect of it. He revels in the scenes where Buffy tests her superpowers. He loves Andrew and it looks like he even wants to redeem Warren. But his romantic scenes are bland so he switches to sex and relegates the ( ... )
Reply
"It can't be that dumb! There must be some hidden meaning in it!"
I think that's what's getting people. At the end you're asking yourself "Well, what the hell was the point of that?" All the retcons, all the character butchering, all the silliness, it all comes down to this? So far, there's really no reason at all for this story to be told, especially with these characters.
Reply
Reply
Evil, evil Keith! :)
Actually, my negativism isn't all-encompassing, I still hope that the final arc will have some redeemable qualities.
I agree that BtVS has always been based on "suspension-of-disbelief" approach, but the Meltzer's arc went in that direction too far.
Little hyperlobic there ain't you?
Hope dies last :P
Reply
You keep giving me those open goals!
"I agree that BtVS has always been based on "suspension-of-disbelief" approach, but the Meltzer's arc went in that direction too far."
Eh, Buffy's always been pretty much uncaring about the consequences of her being with either vampire lover.
"Little hyperlobic there ain't you?
Hope dies last :P"
And there you go again!
Reply
I think we read the book rather differently. I'm basically with stormwreath in thinking Angel wasn't consciously lying when he told Buffy he didn't kill anyone. It's literally true and what he says about both demons and governments being on the warpath, in spite rather than because of anything the masked man said or did, is consistent with what's been shown in previous issues if you go back and look at them carefully. One advantage of the comics medium is that it's very easy to do that, a reader can process comic time like Dr Manhattan in Watchmen. This doesn't mean that I think Angel was right, I think he could have acted differently maybe by trying to set up negotiations rather than manipulations but that would have been very out of character for Angel ( ... )
Reply
I think we read the book rather differently. I'm basically with stormwreath in thinking Angel wasn't consciously lying when he told Buffy he didn't kill anyone. It's literally true and what he says about both demons and governments being on the warpath, in spite rather than because of anything the masked man said or did, is consistent with what's been shown in previous issues if you go back and look at them carefully.
You may be right. Maybe it's one of suspension-of-disbelief moments. I mean, in real life, when a man finds out that the girl he loves is in danger, he warns her and/or helps her directly. But in genre fiction heroes sometimes make a lot of illogical steps to create intrigue and tension.
I think Buffy believes Angel when he said the killings weren't his doing in particular I think she believes him when he says that her changing the world is what caused the backlash.The question is, is it true? Was it Buffy and Willow's spell that eventually brought the ( ... )
Reply
Or so it would appear, until you get halfway through 8.35 and Buffy turns around and says "I never do what I'm meant for" and walks away from her "destined true love" back to her friends instead.
Reply
Plot necessity. Keep in mind that they go to fight hand in hand, and before leaping into the fray reaffirm their feelings - "I missed you, etc."
Reply
"because I, the author, say so, and use the universe as my substitute".
I have wondered if the "Universe" is supposed to represent the audience and/or the authors and if the rather acerbic tone toward women the comics are told in is Joss's way of offering commentary on the common view of comic writers. But I think that's just my brain looking for things that aren't there, though there was the Duck Amuck shout-out.
Aside from the consent issues, I think the biggest fail ever is the retcon of the entire 'verse. It's just so big, bad and completely unbelievable that it ruins any credibility the story itself had (not that it had much to begin with). If we're supposed to take it seriously, it just proves that the writer(s) haven't actually watched much of the show.
So, is ( ... )
Reply
But of course he does! He's a girl who wants to marry a superhero. He dreams about happy life, but, being a good girl, he lets a superhero convince him to sacrifice their love on the altar of duty.
I just don't feel hopeful because of the tone of everything about the comics. Spike is part of IDW as well and unlike Angel and the curse (though... yeah will it ever get a mention in the comics?) there's nothing keeping them apart. I think the best we can hope for is another "maybe when..." and then something happens keeping them apart. I'm 100% sure that Joss will keep the status quo because he intends to bait shippers and milk that triangle forever. So we'll get some vague promises when Buffy will be saying goodbye to both vampires who'll go back to IDW ( ... )
Reply
he lets a superhero convince him to sacrifice their love on the altar of duty.
It has the amazing quality of the more you think about it, the less sense it makes.
I'm 100% sure that Joss will keep the status quo because he intends to bait shippers and milk that triangle forever.
I think so too. As S8 there seemed to prove... He's got little else to tell.
Reply
LOL! This r trufax.
As S8 there seemed to prove... He's got little else to tell.
Tragic, isn't it?
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
Well done. Best post yet.
Reply
If we killed characters for truly appalling behavior in the Whedonverse who would be left?
Tara?
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment