Thank you very much for your thoughtful and insightful analysis. I could - possibly - forgive the difference in theme and tone (comparing season 8 with the TV show) IF this comic would actually do the same as the TV series tried/did: subvert the trope, destroy the cliché.
But, on a very medium-centered critics these comics just don't cut it: they are actually really bad comics, regardless of franchise.
I think Meltzer believed that he subverted the cliche by making a gender-switch: the superhero is a girl, the love interest is a guy. But Meltzer's story is terribly out of synch with the characters' past experience.
Thought provoking review! Which, of course, means I'm going to reply to a few of your points. Hope you don't mind. :-)
Many fans wonder what the hell happened to Angel. Why he acts like this? When he was lying? When he was telling his minions that he wanted to banish all magic and destroy Slayer army? Or when he was telling Buffy that he tried save her and to minimize the damage?
I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that you've decided that the second statement was the lie? You talk about Angel being a "villain and a criminal" as if it were established fact; you talk about him "killing her slayers" as if we'd actually ever seen him killing one there on the page, let alone 206 of them.
It seems to me the writers intended the first statement to be the lie, however. And Buffy herself is acting like she believes Angel was telling her the truth.
I've said before - I think this was a misdirect. We saw lots of people claiming to be acting in Twilight's name, but very rarely saw him doing anything particularly evil. He elbowed
( ... )
Let's say that Angel really didn't know that the space fucking would destroy the world, and his seeming indifference to that when Buffy points it out really is just shock and momentary denial on his part. Let's give him all that. Angel's goal was still the purely selfish one of propelling him and Buffy into another universe, without her consent, separating her from her family and friends forever. For this he (at the very least) organized a force which killed hundreds of people.
He was not fighting to to make the world a better place. He was fighting to ensure himself and Buffy a ticket to a better world, regardless of the collateral damage.
The arc may be asking us questions about whether Angel's actions were justifiable, but the only real answer is HELL NO.
(And when thirty Watchers commit suicide rather than face the horrors Twilight is supposed to unleash on the world, I find it VERY hard to believe Angel knew nothing about the potential danger to this world in opening the portal. He just didn't care.)
Angel's goal was still the purely selfish one of propelling him and Buffy into another universe, without her consent
I wouldn't go that far. He seemed to believe that this was happening anyway; it was inevitable:
"The outcome is beyond us. The only absolute in the Earth is that it will end."
"The universe already chose us."
His personal motivation seemed to be one of awe that for once in his long existence, fulfilling a prophecy would also mean doing something he really wanted to do, as opposed to having to endure yet more suffering and loss. I do think that rather blinded him to the side effects.
And "without Buffy's consent"?? He told her he was terrified that she wouldn't want to explore what this prophecy would mean for the two of them; that she would turn away and reject it. Instead, she flew over to him, grabbed him by the lapels and started kissing him. In my book, that's enthusiastic and clear consent.
The arc may be asking us questions about whether Angel's actions were justifiable, but the only real answer is HELL NO.
( ... )
I suspect that Joss is pretty insulated from the reaction of fandom to all this - Allie et al. are the ones in the trenches, fielding emails and tweets. And I also suspect that even if Allie does pass any reactions along, Joss just doesn't care whether fandom - or rather, a specific subset of fandom, because the B/A folks seem to think that as long as Buffy and Angel have sex, all's right with the world - thinks he's writing a feminist story or not.
I don't know how. And I'm not sure after all these years why. But I've been surprised that at the end of the day B/A teh sex and fate really is all that a certain group of fans care about. Nearly all Spike fans that I know would have a conniption fit over Spike having been written doing what Twangel has done. And all B/A fans would be up in arms about how evil this would make Spike if Spike had done what Twangel has done. But, as long as its B/A true love fate, for a certain subset of fans that's okay. Everything is extraneous to that one ideal - B/A y'all!
It's a really, really reductionary view.
I don't know why I'm the least bit surprised by that, but somehow I am. B/A 4 evah and evah, amen, is really all a few fans care about. ::boggles::
At this point, I just think that the comics being laughable trumps everything else -- ships, characters, etc. as depicted in the comics don't matter because it's all just such crack.
I have the impression that Meltzer's arc, formally "adult", was designed as conscious infantilization of the verse to bring heroes closer to target demographics. Angel is drawn as an 18-years old boy; Buffy - as a 16-years old girl.
Even if we accept that they simply look like this in Jeanty's mind (I don't think he's deliberately drawing them younger, that's just his style) that part of the plot certainly seems to want to drop any development they've had since, oh, "Bad Eggs" or so.
That cliche conflicts with the season's overall arc, in which Twilight is a villain and a criminal, but the audience has four months to forget about it by the time the next issue is on sale.
I got to thinking about Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night, in which an American is hired as a double agent during the war; he's to pose as a traitor, transmitting pro-Nazi propaganda over the world, but is secretly passing on classified information to the allies. A few people know that he's a hero, the rest of the world hates him since his propaganda
( ... )
I got to thinking about Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night, in which an American is hired as a double agent during the war; he's to pose as a traitor, transmitting pro-Nazi propaganda over the world, but is secretly passing on classified information to the allies. A few people know that he's a hero, the rest of the world hates him since his propaganda clearly did damage - so does that make him a de facto traitor or not? Vonnegut's conclusion: "We are who we pretend to be, so we must be careful who we pretend to be."
But I agree with Vonnegut. If a person wears a mask for a long time, the mask becomes his face.
I've still got some hope that maybe, just maybe, either a) Meltzer, Allie et al have been feigning ignorance and are in on the subversion, or b) Joss simply hasn't
( ... )
You know, I suspect Kurt Vonnegut might have a more nuanced and thoughtful opinion on complex moral issues than Mike Stackpole. :) But that's the point; there are plenty of people who see things in fairly simple terms, and - for example - regard the protagonist of '24' as a hero. Even if Joss wants to imply that Angel was wrong to do what he did, he has to take baby steps. But here on LJ, we tend to leap straight to the end of the chain because we already know what happns in between.
Even if Joss wants to imply that Angel was wrong to do what he did, he has to take baby steps. But here on LJ, we tend to leap straight to the end of the chain because we already know what happens in between.
I suspect that "baby spets" would have required an additional season of "Angel", and Joss can't afford that luxury. So he leaves it to the fandom to come up with as many interpretations as possible.
Comments 293
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and insightful analysis. I could - possibly - forgive the difference in theme and tone (comparing season 8 with the TV show) IF this comic would actually do the same as the TV series tried/did: subvert the trope, destroy the cliché.
But, on a very medium-centered critics these comics just don't cut it: they are actually really bad comics, regardless of franchise.
And you put it so eloquently. Thanks again! :-)
Reply
I think Meltzer believed that he subverted the cliche by making a gender-switch: the superhero is a girl, the love interest is a guy. But Meltzer's story is terribly out of synch with the characters' past experience.
Reply
Many fans wonder what the hell happened to Angel. Why he acts like this? When he was lying? When he was telling his minions that he wanted to banish all magic and destroy Slayer army? Or when he was telling Buffy that he tried save her and to minimize the damage?
I'm going out on a limb here and guessing that you've decided that the second statement was the lie? You talk about Angel being a "villain and a criminal" as if it were established fact; you talk about him "killing her slayers" as if we'd actually ever seen him killing one there on the page, let alone 206 of them.
It seems to me the writers intended the first statement to be the lie, however. And Buffy herself is acting like she believes Angel was telling her the truth.
I've said before - I think this was a misdirect. We saw lots of people claiming to be acting in Twilight's name, but very rarely saw him doing anything particularly evil. He elbowed ( ... )
Reply
Let's say that Angel really didn't know that the space fucking would destroy the world, and his seeming indifference to that when Buffy points it out really is just shock and momentary denial on his part. Let's give him all that. Angel's goal was still the purely selfish one of propelling him and Buffy into another universe, without her consent, separating her from her family and friends forever. For this he (at the very least) organized a force which killed hundreds of people.
He was not fighting to to make the world a better place. He was fighting to ensure himself and Buffy a ticket to a better world, regardless of the collateral damage.
The arc may be asking us questions about whether Angel's actions were justifiable, but the only real answer is HELL NO.
Reply
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I wouldn't go that far. He seemed to believe that this was happening anyway; it was inevitable:
"The outcome is beyond us. The only absolute in the Earth is that it will end."
"The universe already chose us."
His personal motivation seemed to be one of awe that for once in his long existence, fulfilling a prophecy would also mean doing something he really wanted to do, as opposed to having to endure yet more suffering and loss. I do think that rather blinded him to the side effects.
And "without Buffy's consent"?? He told her he was terrified that she wouldn't want to explore what this prophecy would mean for the two of them; that she would turn away and reject it. Instead, she flew over to him, grabbed him by the lapels and started kissing him. In my book, that's enthusiastic and clear consent.
The arc may be asking us questions about whether Angel's actions were justifiable, but the only real answer is HELL NO. ( ... )
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I don't know how. And I'm not sure after all these years why. But I've been surprised that at the end of the day B/A teh sex and fate really is all that a certain group of fans care about. Nearly all Spike fans that I know would have a conniption fit over Spike having been written doing what Twangel has done. And all B/A fans would be up in arms about how evil this would make Spike if Spike had done what Twangel has done. But, as long as its B/A true love fate, for a certain subset of fans that's okay. Everything is extraneous to that one ideal - B/A y'all!
It's a really, really reductionary view.
I don't know why I'm the least bit surprised by that, but somehow I am. B/A 4 evah and evah, amen, is really all a few fans care about. ::boggles::
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B/A 4 evah and evah, amen, is really all a few fans care about.
I'd hazard the guess it's really more about winning than the characters or ship itself.
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I have the impression that Meltzer's arc, formally "adult", was designed as conscious infantilization of the verse to bring heroes closer to target demographics. Angel is drawn as an 18-years old boy; Buffy - as a 16-years old girl.
Even if we accept that they simply look like this in Jeanty's mind (I don't think he's deliberately drawing them younger, that's just his style) that part of the plot certainly seems to want to drop any development they've had since, oh, "Bad Eggs" or so.
That cliche conflicts with the season's overall arc, in which Twilight is a villain and a criminal, but the audience has four months to forget about it by the time the next issue is on sale.
I got to thinking about Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night, in which an American is hired as a double agent during the war; he's to pose as a traitor, transmitting pro-Nazi propaganda over the world, but is secretly passing on classified information to the allies. A few people know that he's a hero, the rest of the world hates him since his propaganda ( ... )
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Thanks!
I got to thinking about Kurt Vonnegut's Mother Night, in which an American is hired as a double agent during the war; he's to pose as a traitor, transmitting pro-Nazi propaganda over the world, but is secretly passing on classified information to the allies. A few people know that he's a hero, the rest of the world hates him since his propaganda clearly did damage - so does that make him a de facto traitor or not? Vonnegut's conclusion: "We are who we pretend to be, so we must be careful who we pretend to be."
Upthread Stephen talks about Mike Stackpole's books that have the opposite conclusion
http://moscow-watcher.livejournal.com/85056.html?thread=1311040#t1311040
But I agree with Vonnegut. If a person wears a mask for a long time, the mask becomes his face.
I've still got some hope that maybe, just maybe, either a) Meltzer, Allie et al have been feigning ignorance and are in on the subversion, or b) Joss simply hasn't ( ... )
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I suspect that "baby spets" would have required an additional season of "Angel", and Joss can't afford that luxury. So he leaves it to the fandom to come up with as many interpretations as possible.
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ThankyouTHANKYOUthankyou for such a generous gift!
I was away on vacation and I hadn't time to scroll down to the older posts - so I missed your gift! I'm terribly embarrassed - I hope you forgive me!
I'll read it ASAP. You're my hero! You wrote Spuffy!!!
*hugs*
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