Comments | midnitemaraud_r: (More) Musings on Snape, and his accountability in the PoA shack incident

midnitemaraud_r

(More) Musings on Snape, and his accountability in the PoA shack incident

Feb 20, 2006 08:17

Snape is a very popular character for discussion as of late. junediamanti in particular has written two excellent essays, the first regarding the "gang of Slytherins", its nature, and the timeline of the previous generation and the second, Musing on Snape's Worst Memory. (Go read them if you haven't already. They're very good ( Read more... )

snape, hp, canon, remus, rants

Comments 23

archon_mentha February 20 2006, 15:24:52 UTC

Would Snape's bindings have worked on a transformed and violent werewolf? Or was Snape being irresponsible yet again?

I just assumed he was ready to kill Remus-the-werewolf if anything went wrong. He was happy enough to hand Sirius to the Dementors for a fate worse than death...hell, he was probably hoping for the chance to do it himself.

So yes, Remus Lupin acted irresponsibly and stupidly, but his motivation was altruistic in nature. Snape's actions were at least equally irresponsible and stupid, if not more, and his motivation was not out of concern - for Harry, or for the welfare of his pharmaceutical 'patient'. It was based on curiosity, pride, his desire for vindication of his (incorrect) beliefs, and revenge. QED

All that does is make Remus a more likeable character and perhaps (and I'm not convinced of this, either) more morally correct. It does not make Remus less responsible for his actions, and it does not make him less dangerous than Snape.

midnitemaraud_r February 20 2006, 15:36:48 UTC

Oh, I'm definitely not saying that Remus was blameless. I said off the bat that I agreed he acted stupidly and irresponsibly. However, when people are quick to point a finger at Remus for the sole blame - that it was all his fault - they also need to examine Snape's part in the mess as well.

It's not so much about being morally correct, I don't think. At least I wasn't intending it to be. But I suppose that by emphasizing that I believe the underlying reasons behind their actions/choices were... well, I DO think Remus is more morally correct than Snape. And as far as we know up to this point, so does JKR. While I do place blame on both Remus and Snape, I guess I look at Remus' reaction being selfless, while Snape's I interpret as selfish.

As for killing Remus - yes, perhaps, though to do it in front of Harry and Co... that's questionable. Of course, considering how the dementors acted down by the lake, I hope Snape was prepared for a hefty patronus spell.

midnitemaraud_r February 20 2006, 15:44:19 UTC

Also, not that he had much reason after being rebuffed earlier, but once again, Snape didn't go Dumbledore with his 'information' and chose to act on his own - and we all know how well his attempt to thwart Quirrel on his own turned out. Not much of a team player, Snape.

Remus also failed to go to Dumbledore, though I would submit that what Remus saw on the map, as opposed to what Snape saw, was more urgent at the time with regard to requiring adult intervention. You know, it's a huge plot hole here (for me) with the revelation that the order communicated with their patronuses. Because rationally, you'd think they (Remus or Snape) could have easily sent a 'message' to Dumbledore with those means. I really really hate plot holes.

archon_mentha February 20 2006, 16:09:45 UTC

It is a plot hole, definitely. If I could pick any single part of the books to send back to JK for a rewrite...

Well, OK, that one would be second. *g*

As for the morality...I'm not saying I would want Snape for a friend either. Still, I have always seen Lupin as highly immoral.

Yes, a lie of omission isn't the same thing as an active lie. However, any lie that puts students' lives in danger - a lie of omission or not - is still a pretty awful lie. *g*

I think the reason people hold Lupin more responsible in this scenario is because once he sees the name 'Peter Pettrigrew,' Remus is the only one who understands what is going on who is in any position to act - and he knows this. He IS responsible.

I think Snape is horrid (in as you said an interesting and complex way), and I think we see some of that in this scene, but for my money, his general bullying of Neville says plenty about the type of person he is...

Thread 5

best_of_five February 20 2006, 15:53:18 UTC

hi! just popping on over to say it was lovely to meet you :)

i'm going to enjoy having you on my flist so much because i can finally get back into the puppies -- my first slash ship!!

yes, i agree that remus' motivations were definitely altruistic. in fact when i first reread PoA with my enlightened slash glasses on, i always thought that the fact that spotting sirius on the map caused remus to forget something as important as the wolfsbane was an indication of the depth of his feelings toward sirius.

midnitemaraud_r February 20 2006, 16:01:13 UTC

( ... )

shaggydogstail February 20 2006, 17:36:20 UTC

I don't blame Remus at all for dashing off after the kids and Sirius when he saw them on the Map--it was an urgent situation because the children were involved and he had good reason not to call for assistance, because he had reason to believe that Sirius might be innocent, so I can understand him wanting to find out the truth for himself. Snape's behaviour was irresponsible and based on a desire for vengence--in fact, he may well have wanted to set Remus up. (I also think there's a chance that Snape knew all along that Sirius was innocent, as the DEs in Azkaban knew that Peter was the Secret Keeper ( ... )

midnitemaraud_r February 21 2006, 05:06:13 UTC

Oh, it was wrong. And Remus definitely has plenty of culpability. From a slasher POV, I think I tend to think (or hope *g*) that deep down Remus had trouble believing Sirius capable of what he was accused.

But even from a non-slashy view I tend to think that, especially being back at Hogwarts and confronting the ghosts of memories, he remembers the boy who was his friend, the boy who became an animagus largely for Remus' sake, and that secret is just hard to give up. He argues with himself over it and agonizes all year, he admits.

Remus keeps secrets - it's part of who he is, likely largely because of what he is. He's also fallable and human, and as human beings, we don't always see what's obvious or right in front of our faces. Was it wrong of him to do so? Yes. Despite hindsight. But it's also his nature, just as Sirius and even Snape have their particular... quirks. :)

aillil February 20 2006, 18:42:25 UTC

YAY! Snape is an idiot, QED!

*rejoices*

And immense icon love, darling, oh yes! *ggg*

midnitemaraud_r February 21 2006, 05:08:30 UTC

LOL! Well, Remus shares in the culpability, but it just really irks me when people completely villify Remus over this and exhonorate Snape - the poor woobie victim yet again.

The icon is by elwingicons. :)

midnitemaraud_r February 21 2006, 05:56:05 UTC

*headdesk* exonerate. I have no idea how/why I spelled it that way above. No idea! *headdesk*

aillil February 21 2006, 07:28:44 UTC

Oh, I suppose that was a subconscious glitch. {ex-} and {honor} + the verbal suffix {-ate}, well, it's rather fitting, don't you think? 'To put someone out of honour'. *eg*

Anyway, while I love your icon, too, what I meant so say was that your emoticon down in the 'I'm feeling'-line is just the best.

krisomniac February 20 2006, 20:53:34 UTC

Dude! good point. You know I'd never even thought to question why Snape followed Remus to the shack - especially without that last gobletfull of wolfesbane - given that he expected to find a slavering monster on the other side...

Hell, if I were him, I would assume that Remus had gone to the shack specifically to transform NOt to go council with Sirius, because I (Snape) hadn't gotten the potion to him on time.

Then, to play devil's advocate, I always read Snape's comments ("You forgot to take your potion today, Lupin...") to mean that the burden of responsibility was *Remus's* to find Snape sometime during the day to get that last gobletfull, and he had not gone.

midnitemaraud_r February 21 2006, 05:19:37 UTC

Hell, if I were him, I would assume that Remus had gone to the shack specifically to transform

Yes! That, at least to me, would be the logical presumption, but Snape was so convinced that Remus was helping Sirius that it clouded logic.

Then, to play devil's advocate, I always read Snape's comments ("You forgot to take your potion today, Lupin...") to mean that the burden of responsibility was *Remus's* to find Snape sometime during the day to get that last gobletfull, and he had not gone.Yes, I thought about this as well, but I didn't really come to any conclusions about it. The other time we see Remus drink the potion on Halloween (not the full moon night either), Snape brings it to him. And after all of the "I must be grateful" crap in HBP, I can imagine Remus being... resigned and passive about it. I can't recall if it is canon or not, but in my eyes, Snape doesn't make the potion for Remus of his own free will - he makes it because Dumbledore asked him to. So I can very easily see Snape being an obnoxious bastard about it ( ... )