Loyalty vs. Friendship/Rivalry - A Discussion

[mechapotatoalex]

Just a heads up - this will contain general spoilers for Dragon Age II. Nothing specifically plot-related, but I'd recommend you stay away if you're trying to remain completely spoiler-free.

I nearly didn't write this up - it's very easy to get excited about DA2 and want to share it with the ME crowd. However, this is a subject I think is ripe for

Comments

[popehippo]

I personally look forward to DA2's system because it lends much more to the Player Character's personality for those of us who do like to play with a certain persona in mind, because then you have situations that'll come up explicitly tied to your actions/words and how your companions act towards you from then on. I'd loved to have seen some changes to how your squadmates or even your LI reacted to you based on your decisions other than their loyalty missions.

[mechapotatoalex]

Yeah, the romance thing was a very big part of it. As well written as they are (sometimes), it's a little jarring from a metagaming perspective that they will fall for any Shepard, regardless of personality. It's like the traits they like in a person change for every Shepard, and are independant of personality.

In DA2 it's still possible to romance anyone (with any gender too - woo!), but it can play out differently depending on friendship/rivalry - making it far more reactive to your decisions and choices.

[popehippo]

Yes! It's definitely going to add to the replay value, because it digs at my curiosity and desire to try absolutely every option for a game.

[mechapotatoalex]

Not including the DLC character, I make it 16 combinations of character, Hawke's gender, and friendship/rivalry, vs. ME2's 6.

That's a looooot of options ;)

[thebuttonontop]

i'm actually really glad you brought this up. I've just started with the loyalty missions on ME2... (i'm a little behind, i know) and i was thinking much the same thing. I adore each character, ....and reaally, each mission is very very emotionlly done. (hell, Moradins had me near tears) but yes... i agree with you, i think calling it "loyalty" is a bit much. if you think about it, some of these characters are terribly GOOD characters. *i mean that in a the 'vs evil' sort of way* and if you go about gaining their loyalty by being a Renegade and beating on/hurting people... they're still loyal to you fi you complete their mission

[mechapotatoalex]

Heh, unfortunately it really does go down exactly the same regardless of loyalty - the only difference is getting rocketed in the face, for no apparant reason, if he's not loyal. Perhaps he had a sudden flash of his daddy issues and he hesitated too long?

But yeah, I still think the writing and characters are absolutely great - there's a load of emotional stuff in there that's really stayed with me. It's just the actual system that's running under the hood that needs more work I think.

[thebuttonontop]

yeah.. i haven't gotten this into a video game... ever. but... i mean, they do seem to be refining it slowly.... so i have hope. :D

lol@daddy issues. oh god, Jacob. i kinda don't want to do his loyalty mission. it might make my day to see him get rocketed in the face.

*shhh. i'm not a huge Jacob fan, LOL and apologize in advance if you are.*
:)

[lanoger]

Jacob couldn't move fast enough because he was weighed down by emotional baggage.

Trufax.

[themarshal]

I would love to see a more robust, complex system for 'taming' your crew in ME3, but given the changes that they made from ME1->ME2, I imagine Bioware will continue down the route of "Enhanced Shooter" rather than "Space RPG".

Now, I don't necessarily mind the ambiguity as to why so-and-so is now loyal, since it allows me to fill in the blanks with headcanon. I know that some people feel that makes for a weak story, but I'd rather have some fuzziness on the details rather than be forced to accept a story that I don't really believe/enjoy.

One way or another, though, loyalty/friendship wouldn't explain the survival rate in the Suicide Mission. That at least could have been handled MUCH better.

[mechapotatoalex]

I definitely agree that an ambiguous reason is better than a bad reason. I think it's less about having a concrete answer, and more about having a plausable scenario for it to happen in.

In-game they give the reason of the characters' heads being clear, but honestly - when you're surrounded by Collectors shooting at you, is your mind really going to be anywhere other than what you're doing at that moment?

[themarshal]

"Collectors incoming! We gotta get this door closed! ...but man, I wonder how my father - who I haven't heard from in ten years - is doin..." *rockettotheface*

Honestly the only decent part about the SM was that it forced you to select the "right" person for the job(s). I could definitely see one of them dying because you didn't know your crew well enough.

[thebuttonontop]

i just giggled at this so hard that people are looking at me funny.

truth though.

[raptorix]

Crap.
I'm going to have to have multiple spare saves for DA2, lol!

I wonder if ME3 will take a page from this friendship/rivalry system and make their own version (or context?) of it? Bioware Devs do swap from projects when their roles are done on each game.

[vilkacis]

Honestly, much as I've enjoyed ME2, the loyalty system is full of fuck and basically anything would be better. Oh, what's this, the biggest bunch of badasses in the galaxy can't focus on the mission unless I solve their daddy issues? And the returning characters not being "loyal" after we saved the galaxy together in the last game. And the magic red/blue "make everything good" options.

The friend/rival thing is interesting, but it has another problem - a "rival" is someone you disagree with but respect (or so they say), but what about someone I don't respect? How does that work within that system? DA2 at least begins at a much lower level (get money, buy house) so having companions leave if they don't like your face actually makes sense here, as opposed to Origins where you were doing Really Important Shit. (What's that, Alistair, I'm an asshole so you quit the Blight? Well fuck you too, buddy

[mechapotatoalex]

Well as far as rivalry goes, they say they respect you for being consistent. I guess Hawke's actions are still worthy of respect, whatever you think of him/her.

I think they point they're trying to make with it is that so long as they know what to expect from you, they'll be more trusting of you. If you're unpredictable and stay in the middle, they're less likely to follow you or help you, because they don't know what you're going to end up doing.

And with DA2 you do indeed get bonuses on both sides. Varric for example becomes better at aiming if he's a rival because he's trying to prove himself.

[irvys_sefie]

omg I loved making people hate me in Alpha Protocol! Reading the descriptions for the bonuses you got from handlers cracked me up so much. SIE had some of the best ones:
There's something about SIE's androgynous voice over your earpiece that makes you less inclined to die - it's probably the fear that if you were wounded on your mission, she'd rescue you and lick your wounds.

and

Like it or not, you're working with SIE for this mission. At least her annoying accent and awkward innuendos distract you from the pain of injury.

I love that game XD

[fifmeister]

*spit-take* I never saw any of that in my Alpha Protocol playthrough! Maybe because I went with professional responses all the time. I just finished my first run the other day, but now I want to run to my XBox and start up a sarcastic/aggressive playthrough immediately, haha.