Still cranky...

[lyssie]

Fandom is why we can't have nice things. Like strong female characters.

Fandom loves cock. Fandom does not like girly bits or women... Fandom claims to like women, and yet, when female characters appear, they're dissected down to their bones and called all sorts of things from 'boring' to 'unrealistic' to 'Mary Sue'.One of the things the recent

Comments

[dkphoenix]

I've never understood female fan indifference to hatred of female characters, whether they're well-written and have depth or not, either. With some fic writers my pet theory is that they slash the pretty men that they themselves would like to boink and see any canon female love interests as competition, which is batshit insane, because hello, fictional characters, but fandom and sanity so seldom occupy the same area code.

I just can't get interested in writing anything without a strong female protagonist. And I RP female characters almost exclusively, which gets me accused of really being a man. Go figure.

[lyssie]

Fandom and sanity really don't occupy the same area code. Sigh.

I'm wondering what the stats are on men playing female characters and vice versa... Of course, the men aren't filling in the gap of fic about women, sadly.

[nique]

Heh. Well, you know how I feel about this... but, you're right. As I've muttered about on and off, I'm really tired of hearing this "We're subverting the text by taking the female characters out of it!" that I've heard from slash writers. Now, of course, all slash writers aren't this way, but as soon as someone spouts some Woman's Lib bull they got off a website when I ask them why they've not only *removed* the woman, but more or less castrated a male character to serve in her place, the only answer I can come to is that they are uncomfortable with themselves. And hey, this is not all their fault. We live in a society where male sexuality is something to be encouraged, but female sexuality = bad. If you're a woman comfortable with yourself and your body, you're a whore (as much as I hate it when people bring up the 'Madonna/whore complex). Basically penis = good, vagina = BAD BAD DIRTY. And thusly, slash is a Way Around the Shame, rather than the Liberating Force some people claim

[nique]

Well, when I say that, I mean in terms of what is presented to women as acceptable. Full frontal female nudity isn't included in films for women, it's for men, and the reason seeing a penis is such a big deal is because men have their own issues with genitalia, and, lo, the film industry is still largely male oriented.

[hergrace]

Ah....but female full-frontal is legs-closed, thus hiding the vagina and all its rose-petally beauty. Male full-frontal as shocking, but acceptable is limp and non-threatening. When either the legs are open or there is an erection, then it enters the realm of pornography (in the current way of thinking).

[lizardbeth_j]

Oh SING IT

[lilacsigil]

it always becomes weighted down with that character having to hold the entire weight of femininity
Which is why I like shows/books/comics with more than one female character, to avoid the "one symbolic woman" problem. (Well, I don't watch BSG, because I'm scared of apocalyptic shows, but otherwise, yay BSG!) It's a problem in the source material (see any movie where the heroine is super-tough until suddenly she needs saving for plot reasons) and it's a major problem in fandom. Bechdel's law should be compulsory for all shows, then I'd have more fantastic women to read and write about. (Supernatural, I'm looking at you - more Jo, Ellen and Mary, please!)

[lizardbeth_j]

Yeah, as much I enjoy watching Supernatural (which I do, for the pretty and the mytharc), I've found I can't write fic for it because I don't have an "in." The addition of Jo and (especially) Ellen helped, but when I found myself genderbending Sam because that was the only way I could deal with it, I threw up my hands and stepped back to just watching the show. But then again, some people can write epics with Dean/Tessa the Reaper, so I guess it's my own deal.

I used to be more into comics but the return of the company wide crossover, an upsurge in gratuitous violence (IMO), and a baby all made following the stories too hard. But yeah, Jen Walters, Jean, Birds of Prey, etc. were some of my favorites for awhile. :)

[lyssie]

The Mary Sue Elizabeth tag annoys me as much as Mary Sue Sam Carter does. For one thing, the men are just as Mary Sue. But it's ok, because they're BOYS, so fandom never rants about it

[stexgirl2000]

It's late, I'm tired, but let me put out a hearty "AMEN!"

What's sad is that what you've pointed out has been said before and it seems that as time goes on the bashing of female characters just seems to get worse. I remember Nostalgia bringing up this topic, what two years ago, and boy, did people go off.

Admittedly I write fic for the RRP (relationships, romance and porn), but I have to have my female characters strong and likable (if not wholly human and as flawed as the men) or I can't write.

Anyway it's late, I'm tired and I can't get another coherent thought out.

[lyssie]

Oh, god. I do remember Nos' talking about this (she's also the one who went, "...there is no Rose community. WTF."). I think I remember agreeing with her, too. Though I might have been not particularly vocal about it.

I had no coherency left last night. *g*

[nique]

For some reason, Farscape fans seem to be bewtter about this (Lyss pointed out to me that Aeryn is the one female in fandom that doesn't get trashed by the fanbase, really). I think this is possibly due to both the strength of the sorce material and the fact that as a whole, they seem to be smarter than your average fan...

[lyssie]

Well, Farscape is one of the few exceptions. It's very hard to find people who think Aeryn sucks.

Although I'm sure there's tons of ooc Aeryn + Baby = Painful Romance Novel Cliches fic out there. I'm sure there's less than there is for Sam Carter, though. Or even the Harry Potter girls.