My question concerns forms of address in Russia under Stalinist rule, around 1940, in particular the terms tovarishch (comrade) and grazhdanin (citizen
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Stalin era is long gone, and words changed their meaning. Today "grazhdanin" is a mild insult; but I think that in Stalin times it wasn't.
In Bulgakov's novel "Master and Margaret" one of the minor characters is being beaten and, trying to reason with his attackers, says "Tovarishchi..." (plural of "tovarishch"), then realizes that they aren't exactly his comrades, and tries a different approach: "Grazhdane..." (plural of "grazsdanin"), realizes that they aren't worth that name either, and gives up. The novel's primary timeline is set in 1930s.
She will be addressed "tovarisch Ivanova" (more formalyl/neutrally, if it is a workspace or meeting), or grazhdanka Ivanova colloquially or ironically. Degree of suspicion doesn't matter. It could be "so called (tak nazyvaemaya) tovarisch Ivanova", if you want it to sound really chilly and apprehensive.
1. Yes. Tovarisch (comrade) is gender neutral. 2. Kind of. Grazhdanin/grazhdanka (citizen/citizeness) were not insulting per se, but got used in a slightly-unfriendly-but-still-formal way. For example, a policeman would address a suspect that way ("grazhdanin, may I see your passport?") Or if somebody were trying to take your place in a line-up and you wanted to snap at them ("grazhdanin, it's my turn now, not yours!")
How a suspect woman would be called depends big time on who's talking (and who's listening). If the setting is formal, like a court hearing, or a police report, she'll probably be grazhdanka Ivanova. If the setting is less formal, she might be just Ivanova, or, if the speaker is seriously antagonistic and/or wants to make a point, "so-called comrade Ivanova".
Sources: native speaker, watched lots of Soviet-era movies
Could you name at least one soviet-era movie, where tovarish Ivanova is called "so called tovarish Ivanova" beacuse the speaker is seriously antagonistic and/or wants to make a point and not because he suspect that she is not Ivanova but Petrova? It sounds rather strange for me. Native speaker too.
@r_blackcat *Thinks really hard* Nope. Somebody suggested it further up the thread. It does sound right, though - I definitely recall hearing/seeing "the so-called comrades" (так называемые товарищи, plural) used in exactly that context. Can't for the life of me remember where. Do you suppose it might be more modern? I'd say that regardless it would make sense in an informal setting, though; it's a fairly obvious pun, nothing period-specific.
@merle_p Another thing just occurred to me. If the speaker were really hostile and especially if the woman were suspected to have anything to do with upper classes/ White Movement/ trying to restore old regime, she could get addressed - very, very sarcastically - as gospozha. Gospodin (masculine) and gospozha (feminine) are pre-Revolution (and post-Soviet) forms of address, and pre-Revolution they were used for middle/upper class. Which, in Soviet times, would designate anyone thus addressed as a class enemy. This is quite strong, though, so use with caution.
Grazhdanin\grazhdanka were not an insult in 1940. In a police or at court it would definitely be "grazhdanka Ivanova". In other cases , I agree with Rusquen - it depends on who is talking.
Thank you so much for clarifying! Oh, wait, now I actually have another question: Is Ivanova (or Petrova) here a patronym or a last name?
Or,more specifically: what would have been the proper address in a formal setting: Given name + patronym? Only the patronym?
And would that change if someone was trying to subtly indicate that they did not respect the person in question?
The situation I'm thinking about is that a man was just arrested (for political reasons), and one of the policemen talks to his wife in a condescending, slightly threatening way.
Ivanova/ Petrova are last names (pronounced ivanOva and petrOva). Patronyms would be Ivanovna and Petrovna (ivAnovna and petrOvna).
In formal setting it's definitely name+patronym; patronym only is informal and gets used by friends or long-time co-workers.
Policeman, if he wanted to be condescenting/slightly threatening, would use "grazhdanka", likely without surname. Or "grazhdanochka", which is a pet form, and depending on body language and tone of voice could denote either complete lack of any respect or condescending sympathy. Kind of like "missy".
Okay, so just to clarify (and feel free to ignore me, I'm sorry for asking so many questions!):
1. In the context I was referring to, "grazhdanka" either on its own or with surname seems to be the appropriate address.
2. Now, in a more informal setting, if someone wanted to imply that they were a friend of the person they are talking to (even if they don't know them very well): I would assume that it's First name+Patronym, is that correct? So ... "Anna Petrovna", for example?
3. And among family members, only the first name? ("Anna") For children and lovers, potentially a diminutive? ("Annushka", for example?)
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Grazhdanin is not. Female form is grazhdanka.
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In Bulgakov's novel "Master and Margaret" one of the minor characters is being beaten and, trying to reason with his attackers, says "Tovarishchi..." (plural of "tovarishch"), then realizes that they aren't exactly his comrades, and tries a different approach: "Grazhdane..." (plural of "grazsdanin"), realizes that they aren't worth that name either, and gives up. The novel's primary timeline is set in 1930s.
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2. Kind of. Grazhdanin/grazhdanka (citizen/citizeness) were not insulting per se, but got used in a slightly-unfriendly-but-still-formal way. For example, a policeman would address a suspect that way ("grazhdanin, may I see your passport?") Or if somebody were trying to take your place in a line-up and you wanted to snap at them ("grazhdanin, it's my turn now, not yours!")
How a suspect woman would be called depends big time on who's talking (and who's listening). If the setting is formal, like a court hearing, or a police report, she'll probably be grazhdanka Ivanova. If the setting is less formal, she might be just Ivanova, or, if the speaker is seriously antagonistic and/or wants to make a point, "so-called comrade Ivanova".
Sources: native speaker, watched lots of Soviet-era movies
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Native speaker too.
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*Thinks really hard* Nope. Somebody suggested it further up the thread. It does sound right, though - I definitely recall hearing/seeing "the so-called comrades" (так называемые товарищи, plural) used in exactly that context. Can't for the life of me remember where. Do you suppose it might be more modern? I'd say that regardless it would make sense in an informal setting, though; it's a fairly obvious pun, nothing period-specific.
@merle_p
Another thing just occurred to me. If the speaker were really hostile and especially if the woman were suspected to have anything to do with upper classes/ White Movement/ trying to restore old regime, she could get addressed - very, very sarcastically - as gospozha. Gospodin (masculine) and gospozha (feminine) are pre-Revolution (and post-Soviet) forms of address, and pre-Revolution they were used for middle/upper class. Which, in Soviet times, would designate anyone thus addressed as a class enemy. This is quite strong, though, so use with caution.
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Native speaker.
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Or,more specifically: what would have been the proper address in a formal setting: Given name + patronym? Only the patronym?
And would that change if someone was trying to subtly indicate that they did not respect the person in question?
The situation I'm thinking about is that a man was just arrested (for political reasons), and one of the policemen talks to his wife in a condescending, slightly threatening way.
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Patronyms would be Ivanovna and Petrovna (ivAnovna and petrOvna).
In formal setting it's definitely name+patronym; patronym only is informal and gets used by friends or long-time co-workers.
Policeman, if he wanted to be condescenting/slightly threatening, would use "grazhdanka", likely without surname. Or "grazhdanochka", which is a pet form, and depending on body language and tone of voice could denote either complete lack of any respect or condescending sympathy. Kind of like "missy".
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1. In the context I was referring to, "grazhdanka" either on its own or with surname seems to be the appropriate address.
2. Now, in a more informal setting, if someone wanted to imply that they were a friend of the person they are talking to (even if they don't know them very well): I would assume that it's First name+Patronym, is that correct? So ... "Anna Petrovna", for example?
3. And among family members, only the first name? ("Anna") For children and lovers, potentially a diminutive? ("Annushka", for example?)
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