1920s/30s Germany: cabaret, alcohol; WW1 militaria; mourning customs

[akiko]

Greetings! I'm working on an alternate history short story, in which WW1 never happens. Sort of; there's a large European War from about 1930-35, which then leads to the Cold War

Comments

[sollersuk]

Having looked at a lot of social history while studying the interwar period in Germany, I very much doubt that cabarets would have developed if it hadn't been for WWI and its aftermath. It's hard to tell how events would have developed - there would probably still have been communist uprisings - but much would have continued on the same trajectory as before WWI, particularly for "respectable" families, and the chances are they wouldn't be able to go for a girlie night out on their own at all. Unless, of course, a revolution had overthrown the Kaiser anyway.

[akiko]

Are there any books or sites you can recommend for the social history?

The German political system is slightly different; the previous Kaiser (Friedrich III) managed to get a fairly toothless parliament set up, with the intention of it getting stronger over time though never displacing the monarchy.

The 2 mains aren't from particularly respectable families; I haven't figured out exactly what their backgrounds are, but one of them is named Kaufmann, so probably her family runs a shop of some kind. The other might work in a bakery or something like that. Good point that young women weren't terribly liberated then. There's some stuff I need to think about for that. Maybe a male sibling/cousin who isn't quite old enough for the war? Hmm.

[sollersuk]

The problem is that if you change something major like the war, you change everything else. Basically, every book I've seen on between-wars Germany stresses the fact that everything to do with society changed drastically, partly becaue of the trauma of losing the war and partly from the economic disaster.

Someone whose family ran a shop would definitely be respectable. If she did know someone who worked in a bakery, she would be respectable too; though unless the friend was a family member of the owners of the bakery, working there would be unlikely - even before "Kinder, Kirche, Kueche" German women were not expected to work unless it was totally necessary. In other words, a bakery would not be likely to employ women. A male relative is definitely a good idea - though even if cabarets existed, he wouldn't let them go there!

[akiko]

True; I need (basically) imperialism to not quite die out so the idea of space empires in the future works. (That is, why people don't think the idea is crazy and why having Emperors on Earth directing things is plausible.)

I don't want to ignore the real social history; that would be cheating. But I wonder if I could plausibly get a feminist movement (suffrage, wearing natural clothes, that sort of thing, which was a bit of a backlash against the corsetry and all as I understand it) and some limited freedoms for women. (I can make one of their mothers an odd duck of non-conformity if I need to.)

(Of course, I need to get the story finished for June submission. -__- At least I'm quitting my job, so I'll have a lot more time to work on this?)

[duckodeath]

It seems to me that your 1920s-1930s questions can't really be answered by looking at real-world 1920s-1930s sources because the real world answers are based on history where WWI happened. With no war, the profound social changes resulting from the deaths, and economic wreckage of Germany, the wildness of the Weimar years, the rise of communism, (to say nothing of Herr Hitler) etc. etc. etc. would almost certainly never have occurred and the resulting Germany would probably have remained socially a lot more like real-world 1913 Germany than real-world 1930 Germany.

So maybe for social customs you should look more for what Germany was like pre-1914 rather than look for anything in the post war period.

In terms of soldiers and luck, I would think they would carry religious medals, photos, plus the things you mentioned. There might be some info on what soldiers carried in All Quiet on the Western FrontSoldiers who died during battles were buried on the front. When I did a battlefield tour in Belgium about ten years ago, I went to

[akiko]

True enough - I left out some of the other alternate details, like Friedrich III lived to be 80, rather than dying of throat cancer 3 months after his father, so he was able (eventually) to get a parliament set up, though one that doesn't limit the monarchy's power to that of a figurehead, and not pissing off the rest of Europe. (Wilhelm II can manage that on his own, but hopefully being 60-ish rather than 30-ish when he becomes Kaiser would make him less of a petulant child

[jayb111]

The Russian Revolution would have happened differently, though, without WWI, and might have resulted in a more moderate regime.

Also, if you intend Britain and France to be involved in this war, rather than it being limited to Eastern Europe, you'll need to come up with a reason.

[akiko]

Like I said, my Russian history is basically non-existent, outside of skimming WP. I do rather want someone less, uh, kill-happy than Stalin and the regime to be less of the USSR we knew, so a more moderate communist oligarchy could work.

I got the idea about the Slavs from reading (part of; it was boring as sin) a history of Modern Europe, because the Romanovs wanted the Slavs in, say, Serbia and the Balkans in their Empire rather than the Ottoman, and in my world, they did. Which leaves A-H rather pincered. (I'm also trying to figure out what to do with the Ottomans, since that appeared to be falling apart on its own without WW1's help. It's possible that there's been a small-scale war going on down that way.)

I'm not thinking of involving France or Britain in it, though Willy may appeal to his cousin George for aid.

[jayb111]

Second what others have said about the impact of WWI. It had such a huge impact on everything that it's very difficult to imagine how the 20th century might have developed if it hadn't happened as and when it did.

Women's clothing would be different in the 1920s if WWI hadn't happened, as shorter skirts and bobbed hair initially came in as women became more active in war work. And (in the UK at least) simpler clothing was encouraged due to wartime shortages.

Can't speak for mourning customs in Germany, but in the UK elaborate Victorian-style mourning rather went out in WWI. It was discouraged, because so many families had lost men almost everyone would have been in mourning and it was considered bad for civilian morale. So again you might want to take early 20th century customs as a starting point and adapt them to suit your purposes.

[akiko]

As far as mourning, I was thinking of funeral service type stuff. Without a body, I'm guessing there would have been a (Protestant) service, with the family & friends, then ... what? Friends bringing casseroles over? (It's a Southern thing.) Or would there have been too many people dying that everyone just stiff-upper-lip (British, I know) and kept going? (Rhetorical, probably.)

[jayb111]

Again, I can only speak to what I've read about the UK, but there would not have been individual funeral/memorial services for everyone who died. There were just too many, and it would have been discouraged, due to the possible impact on civilian morale of continual services, and because it would have held up the war effort if everyone had to keep taking time off to attend them.

If a soldier had been repatriated due to wounds and subsequently died of his wounds, then the remains could be returned to the family and there could be a funeral.

Names of latest casualties would be read out on Sundays at their local church, if they were churchgoers, at school assemblies for teachers/former pupils, posted at workplaces, reported in local newspapers. Daily papers had casualty lists, but maybe only officers, not all ranks, not sure about that.

[akiko]

I don't know about the other belligerents, but I read that the high commander of France, Joffre, didn't publish casualty lists because he didn't want the enemy to know their numbers. France was a bit of a special case, though, being the main theatre for fighting. Clearly, the UK did, or at least did in some way, and Germany may have

[veradee]

Does your entire story take place in (post-war) Berlin because that's the only place that seems to fit your idea of cabarets and partying and the "roaring twenties".

Actually, absinthe was banned in Germany.

In German "cabaret" and Kabarett" aren't the same. Cabaret refers to the musical show, whereas Kabarett means sophisticated political comedy or rather satire.

St George is one of the patrons of soldiers. Perhaps soldiers would have worn a medal showing St George.

Families of war deceased were notified by telegram.

[noctuabunda]

Does you entire story take place in (post-war) Berlin because that's the only place that seems to fit your idea of cabarets and partying and the "roaring twenties".>

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Of course, Berlin had the biggest, most exciting scene, but parties and cabarets were common in Cologne or Munich or any other large city, too.

[akiko]

I've seen a lot of postcards from the front online, and I've heard that letters exist from the first war. (Mostly I've read accounts from the high commanders, in The Guns of August.)

[silversolitaire]

Are you sure on that absinth ban? I've kinda seem to remember that at the beginning of the 20th century Absinth was banned in most European counties except Spain and... some other country. I don't know for sure though, so just a heads up to check the facts again

[akiko]

No, I'm not sure, but the wikipedia entry implies that Germany wasn't among the countries that banned it. The English one, anyway. German wp says it was banned in most of Europe except Spain and Portugal, which I seem to have misinterpreted yesterday ^^;

Someone above said families were notified by telegram. I'd always imagined it being in person, but during wartime, as you say, things are different. Good point on personal effects. I wonder if a friend might have mailed something to the family at next convenience?

[silversolitaire]

Yes, I could imagine that's possible. Question is just how big it would be and whether there were limits as to what one could send with army postal service. So you might want to research into that direction.

[akiko]

I was thinking something small, like maybe Georg's good luck charm and a letter. Possibly a completion by the friend of Georg's last letter.

Where would you start looking for limits like that? I can find current ones pretty easily, but historic, let alone during wartime? Hmm.