Discussion 01 - The Role of Fate

[bleed_peroxide]

Can I just say how much wicked_seraph and I love you all? Seriously, thank you for keeping the community active and alive! ♥ I think jackks is on to something - I don't think I've ever seen such an active community for Notre Dame de Paris. Again, you guys totally take all the credit for that.

heartillys messaged me a few weeks ago with a great suggestion to make the comm

Comments

[jackks]

However much Hugo and the characters yabber on about Fate, I don't think there is any such "large mysterious concept" at work here at all. The outcome is the result of a friction of human wills rubbing against eachother, and in the case of Frollo and Esmeralda, utterly uncomprimising in their aims - Frollo: For Esmeralda to have no-one but himself, and Esmeralda: To have no-one but Phoebus. Obviously, Frollo is in the position of power to carry out his will against Esmeralda, though he gives her the choice: Himself or death. She chooses death. Thus, both Frollo and Esmeralda, out of stubborness for never departing from what they each desire, are only themselves responsible for their joint destruction. They really should stop scapegoating the "mysterious hand of fate

[silverwhistle]

Yup.

She chooses death

But even then, she is allowed a get-out clause, by her Mum. But by bawling out "Phœbus!" even after her mother's told her to stay down and keep quiet, she gets them both killed (and in so doing, indirectly, gets both Claude and Quasimodo killed, too).

[jackks]

The utterly crashing coincidence of Esmeralda finding her mother at the end of the book could, I suppose, be seen as Fate actually working in Esmeralda's favour for a moment... And then she calls out "Phoebus!" and the final nail is hammered in the coffin. Oddly, if I recall, on being marched to the noose, she then reflects on the "inescapable power of fate".

No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.

[bleed_peroxide]

No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.

I laughed at this so hard. Harsh but so, so true.

[silverwhistle]

It's very much a matter of choice, although their personalities to a great extent predetermine what choices they will make. (But being fictional, Fate obviously has a hand in it, having the name of Victor Hugo, master of all their destinies!) It is a huge narrative coincidence to have Esméralda and Quasimodo linked from infancy and Pâquette be Esméralda's real mother.

it only fits that the first question centres on "his" word: fate.

First of all, Jehan (whose Greek is unreliable) mistranslates ΑΝΑΓΚΗ. What it really means is:
1. Lat. necessitas, force, constraint, necessity… 2. necessity, natural want or desire, such as hunger [Perhaps in the context of NDdP, sexual desire?] 3. actual force, violence: hence bodily pain, suffering.
In the case of Claude, it embraces all these meanings. Jehan reveals not only how little he understands Greek, but also how little he understands what his brother is suffering

[bleed_peroxide]

First of all, Jehan (whose Greek is unreliable) mistranslates ΑΝΑΓΚΗ. What it really means is:
1. Lat. necessitas, force, constraint, necessity… 2. necessity, natural want or desire, such as hunger [Perhaps in the context of NDdP, sexual desire?] 3. actual force, violence: hence bodily pain, suffering.

In the case of Claude, it embraces all these meanings. Jehan reveals not only how little he understands Greek, but also how little he understands what his brother is suffering.That's really interesting - I never knew that. The word still very much works for him, but not at all the way I had seen it before. I can see how one could interpret "force" as a supernatural force at work, but your explanation does make more sense, especially when applied to Frollo

[silverwhistle]

I think that Phoebus and Esméralda share Djali's brain between them

Whereas the goat has a human mind!

[bleed_peroxide]

I know, right? I think the goat made some of the wiser choices, though spelling out "Phoebus" likely wasn't the best one XD

[ex_heartill]

While it would be cool to say that the whole book is driven because of fate, it all really boils down to various people making some really bad choices. We make choices everyday, whether they be good or bad, selfish or not selfish. Pushing the blame on Esmeralda, a young innocent naive girl that really just needed a good smack, isn't right

[bleed_peroxide]

Pushing the blame on Esmeralda, a young innocent naive girl that really just needed a good smack, isn't right.

Exactly. I mean, I don't deny that she had a huge role in the way things go because almost all the mens' choices had to do with her. But it's like blaming some poor pedestrian crossing the road for a huge car wreck just because they were there at the wrong time and place. I mean, you could stretch to say that it's their fault since they were texting and walking across the street, but the car driver could have also seen them beforehand, known the potential for a wreck, and avoided it as best they could. It's a stretch as far as analogies go, sure, but I see the events in Notre Dame as being one huuuuuge car wreck.

I really think Hugo was giving us all a warning: be careful of the choices you make. While the consequences may not seem clear, they will always be some whether they be good or bad.

Absolutely agreed. They all made the choice - the only person really forced to do anything was probably Quasimodo, which was to

[silverwhistle]

I mean, I don't deny that she had a huge role in the way things go because almost all the men's choices had to do with her. But it's like blaming some poor pedestrian crossing the road for a huge car wreck just because they were there at the wrong time and place.

No.
Because she isn't a passive victim. She actively makes bad choices herself.
With her background, she trusts a guy whose idea of a first date is a sleazy knocking-shop run by a woman who is obviously a bawd? She has opportunities to get out of bad situations, which she could use, if she had the wit to manipulate Claude's infatuation. And ultimately, she lands her mother and herself in trouble because she can't keep her mouth shut.

I don't suffer fools in real life or fiction, and she really is irredeemably stupid.

[ex_heartill]

She really is irredeemably stupid.

If you think about it, everyone is stupid in their own way in the novel. Esmeralda is stupid for her actions regarding Phoebus, Phoebus is stupid for leaving his fiance just to be with a young beautiful gypsy, Frollo is stupid for falling for a gypsy, forsaking his beliefs, and nearly taking advantage of her, Quasimodo is stupid for following the orders of Frollo. Pushing the blame onto Esmeralda for everything isn't correct.

[estella_of_hope]

Choice. Choice makes everything. Every minuite, every second of our life we make choices, big or small, which determine our lives. So they did.

[bleed_peroxide]

*nod nod* Agreed. They had to live with the results of what they did - it might have been a bit more severe than you'd think it warranted (such as essentially being hanged because you fell in love with a bad boy), but you can't do anything without a price.

[ladybastet92]

I really don't see 'fate' affecting these characters as much as a series of events toppling on top of each other. Unlike fate, these events were caused by the choices and emotions of the characters, but I think as the story goes on, the events get harder to stop as the characters become less rational and the conequences for their actions get bigger, until the end, the events are an unstoppable landslide

[silverwhistle]

Good. Yes, and very much why I believe that that rationality must always come first. It's never a good idea to put it to one side and let emotion take over.

[twolionss]

But then we wouldn't have Frollo and Notre Dame de Paris!

[silverwhistle]

I want to see him work through it and come out the other side.
That's why fanfic exists… ;-D