Discussion 01 - The Role of Fate

[bleed_peroxide]

Can I just say how much wicked_seraph and I love you all? Seriously, thank you for keeping the community active and alive! ♥ I think jackks is on to something - I don't think I've ever seen such an active community for Notre Dame de Paris. Again, you guys totally take all the credit for that.

heartillys messaged me a few weeks ago with a great suggestion to make the comm

Comments

[jackks]

However much Hugo and the characters yabber on about Fate, I don't think there is any such "large mysterious concept" at work here at all. The outcome is the result of a friction of human wills rubbing against eachother, and in the case of Frollo and Esmeralda, utterly uncomprimising in their aims - Frollo: For Esmeralda to have no-one but himself, and Esmeralda: To have no-one but Phoebus. Obviously, Frollo is in the position of power to carry out his will against Esmeralda, though he gives her the choice: Himself or death. She chooses death. Thus, both Frollo and Esmeralda, out of stubborness for never departing from what they each desire, are only themselves responsible for their joint destruction. They really should stop scapegoating the "mysterious hand of fate".

Actually, one of the reasons I like the book so much is because there is no "Hand of God" present. i.e. Many writers, as the Gods of their fictional universe, are compelled to ensure events result that the "bad" characters have bad ends, and the "good" characters are, by the end, rewarded for their struggle. Where as in the real world, if a God exists, then he is nowhere near as just, or compelled to reward good behaviour during one's lifetime (apparently we have to wait till our deaths for that).

NDP reflects this well I think.

[silverwhistle]

Yup.

She chooses death

But even then, she is allowed a get-out clause, by her Mum. But by bawling out "Phœbus!" even after her mother's told her to stay down and keep quiet, she gets them both killed (and in so doing, indirectly, gets both Claude and Quasimodo killed, too).

[jackks]

The utterly crashing coincidence of Esmeralda finding her mother at the end of the book could, I suppose, be seen as Fate actually working in Esmeralda's favour for a moment... And then she calls out "Phoebus!" and the final nail is hammered in the coffin. Oddly, if I recall, on being marched to the noose, she then reflects on the "inescapable power of fate".

No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.

[bleed_peroxide]

No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.

I laughed at this so hard. Harsh but so, so true.

[silverwhistle]

Entirely true.
She's a complete liability.

[silverwhistle]

Precisely.
She's handed a huge 'Get out of Jail Free' card, and promptly screws it up.
Pâquette should have slapped her.
The girl really is too stupid to live.

[ladybastet92]

Imagine if she and Phoebus had got it on, and she wound up pregant.

Their child probably wouldn't have enough brain cells to survive.

[silverwhistle]

Well, possibly to survive.
But not to be able to walk and talk simultaneously.

(Yes, I am that much of a bitch about those two!)

[silverwhistle]

You forgot the other great, uncompromising passion: of a boy for a goat… ;-D

[bleed_peroxide]

I agree - one thing I like about the book is that there's no such thing as a deus ex machina that can get the characters out of a sticky situation, no hand of God that can pluck them out of a circumstance because they wish they could take it back.

No doubt Esméralda had wished at some point that she could have been kinder to Quasimodo, a bitch to Phoebus, or stabbed Frollo after deceiving him, but hindsight is 20/20. Instead of rewarding her for being a pure (and disputably "good") character like many authors, Hugo lets her live with the consequences of her choices. There's a lot of grey areas regarding morality, where Frollo isn't a bad person because of his less-than-virtuous feelings and actions, just like Esméralda is not a perfect girl just because she's beautiful (which seems to be an all-too-common motif where beauty = perfection).

[silverwhistle]

No doubt Esméralda had wished at some point…

I very much doubt that she did. She remains besotted with Phœbus, which is what kills her. She's blinkered to the end.

[bleed_peroxide]

*sigh* You're probably right. I try to give her some credit, but she does every little to deserve it.

[ladybastet92]

As much as I like the idea that she regrets her decisions (hence my fanfiction), I really doubt she actually does. If she's foolish enough to risk her groundless love for her life, I doubt she was thinking of anything else but Phoebus the time she was at the hangman's noose.

[bleed_peroxide]

*nod nod* I wish your fic was canon, because I really liked the idea of her maybe having the hindsight to think that she was wrong at some point. I wish she could have at last seen that she was cruel to Quasimodo.

Alas, she likely wasn't. She's not a villain by any means, but she can't see past the PHOEBUS, MON PHOEBUS blinders. :/

[twolionss]

Very well put.
There are so many decisive points in the NDdP storyline: if Paquette's father had not died when he did and leaving her poor and unable to sustain herself and her mother, if the gypsies had not visited Reims and stealing Esme, if Frollo had walked away from the Foundlings' cradle that Quasimodo Sunday, if Gringoire had not yelled for help when he saw Esme being abducted by Quasi, if... if... Endless ifs. It's pure chance things happened the way they did. Nothing was pre-destined. The characters may think that they have a choice and that they can determine their future (or the future of others) but nothing goes according to their plans. What if Esme chooses death over Claude? It's her cry of "Phoebus!" that kills her, her own fault, not the priest's revenge.

A very nice thread you have here!