Meta: Sometimes I feel like a tool of phallocentric hetero-male-supremacy, and sometimes I don't.

[lefaym]

Over the last week or so, I've been thinking a lot about the way that my slash-writing in Torchwood/Who fandom fits in with my feminism. I'm trying to be very self-critical (i.e. I'm not trying to hand-wave problematic issues where they do exist), but at the same time, I really want to highlight the positive feminist experiences that have come out

Comments

[jo02]

There is so much here that I don't really know where to start.

I'm going to have to give it a lot more thought, but I realised that one of my problems with 'where to start' is that you need to define - briefly if you can - for me, for us, what 'feminism' is to you. Without that baseline to work with I don't know where I'm starting from.

Also, the whole discussion about Gwen, her PoV role in the show, her role in Torchwood, and her impact on the Jack/Ianto relationship, is so huge it really warrants a whole discussion of it's own. When I get going I will try, really try, to limit my discussion of her to just what is relevant here.

[lefaym]

Well, I tend to go with the "feminism is the radical notion that women are people" line most of the time

[jo02]

I love the 'doormat' quote, I am so adopting that.

[lefaym]

Yay!

[blue_fjords]

Hmmm....thinky post. One thing that you may want to acknowledge, and actually, I'm not sure how tightly you hold to this idea when you write fic, but when you are writing non-AU fanfic, you generally have to stay in the constraints of the show. I'm not saying you can't write a fantastic piece that totally redefines Jack and Ianto's relationship and evens out the power dynamic between them, but I know that for me personally, around the time that "Wine Glasses" is set in the TW canon, I don't think their relationship was anywhere near one between equals. And though I think it's awesome when a fic can totally demonstrate Ianto having more agency, I wouldn't necessarily say that the writer is bringing shame on feminism by writing them as unequals. This is how they are on the show, and though it shifts throughout the series, Jack is still immortal, which is not something that is ever going to come up in a Real Life relationship. If you were writing original fiction, I think you would have to try harder at creating characters who could

[lefaym]

I know that for me personally, around the time that "Wine Glasses" is set in the TW canon, I don't think their relationship was anywhere near one between equals. And though I think it's awesome when a fic can totally demonstrate Ianto having more agency, I wouldn't necessarily say that the writer is bringing shame on feminism by writing them as unequals.Absolutely, I think you raise an excellent point here. Actually, I was just reading a blog that was arguing that being "feminist" does not necessarily mean portraying a feminist utopia

[smirnoffmule]

Actually, I was just reading a blog that was arguing that being "feminist" does not necessarily mean portraying a feminist utopia.This indeed, and I feel this quite strongly. I don't think a writer should necessarily be obliged to create character who upholds their own political and social ideals, I don't think it's artistically honest. When I write, be it fiction or original, I'm not provided a platform for myself, I'm providing one for my characters. What happens is driven by their personalities, beliefs, cultural backgrounds etc, not by mine. Obviously I can't help but shoehorn my own prejudices in there somehow or other, but I hope I have the grace to do it in a more unconscious way than by imposing my own set of values and experiences on a character who is not me. In broad strokes, possibly it's a necessity for a sympathetic character, since it would be hard for me to identify with a character who is actively misogynistic, homophobic, racist etc - but I do think characters should reflect roughly the conceptions and

[lefaym]

The author needn't believe that they're correct, and actually if they're clever, can show us in subtle ways that they're not - for example by writing a fic where Ianto tops the fuck out of Jack for three pages, and then is still wrong-footed and confounded by him ultimately (or vice versa).

This is something that I try to achieve in my writing (not that I necessarily succeed), and I do take your point that it's often a matter of keeping people in character. But then again, I must consider that I was writing porn, for women, which encourages readers not to simply read about an act of penetration used as power, but to identify with it and be sexually aroused by it. So I find myself wondering if I problematised the notion of power enough to counter that...

At the end of the day, wanting to be fucked or not is nothing more than a preference for one physical sensation over the other (at any particular given point in time, since versatility does actually exist)Totally agreed about versatility, but I don't think that something like sex

[51stcenturyfox]

Yet it's still problematic, because Jack still withholds information from Ianto, which emphasises that ultimately, Jack still has a helluva lot more agency than Ianto does.

There is employer/employee relationship here as well, though. The Jack/Ianto pairing has other issues attached to it and some of them apply to heterosexual couples.

There are issues I have with some slash writing but I'm going to sleep on this in order to gain a bit more coherency.

[lefaym]

There is employer/employee relationship here as well, though. The Jack/Ianto pairing has other issues attached to it and some of them apply to heterosexual couples.

Of course -- but what I'm arguing here is that the typical cultural assumptions about heterosexual power dynamics (which come with a whole heap of icky patriarchal baggage) get transferred onto Jack/Ianto, and the employer/employee dynamic is part of the way that can manifest itself.

[51stcenturyfox]

Point. I think that one thing missed in slash (or het) fiction involving characters with differing levels of power is this, though: it does not necessarily translate to what they do in intimate situations. Powerful people often relish handing over the reins - and this is not often reflected in fiction. It is perfectly plausible that J/I are intimate equals or that Ianto steers in private.

Personally, I enjoy writing/reading about characters (het or slash or femslash) who are equals outside of the bedroom, though use of power games in the context of sexual interaction is something different entirely and can be unrelated to the characters' realities outside the relationship.

I suppose one could argue that such inequalities pervade our lives anyway, and that J/I fic is one way of negotiating that, but I'm sure the real answer is much more complex than that.This is one reason why I prefer other pairings to Jack/Ianto, and every time I've written J/I, Ianto is large and in charge. I diverge from the trad feminist viewpoint which assumes

[lefaym]

Powerful people often relish handing over the reins - and this is not often reflected in fiction. It is perfectly plausible that J/I are intimate equals or that Ianto steers in private.

I agree with the first point, but as for the second part, I don't think people's lives compartmenatlise quite that easily. Which is not to say that the power dynamics of the bedroom must be exactly the same as the power dynamics of the office, but it's not like the Jack that is the leader of Torchwood ceases to exist when he's having sex -- they may actively seek out a different power dynamic when having sex, but Jack's status as immortal, as boss, etc, doesn't just disappear either.

I actually had a bit about this in the original draft I was writing, but I took it out for this shorter post, but one of the things that I really love about rm and kalichan's I Had No Idea I Had Been Travelling -- they pull no punches about the fact that Jack and Ianto are completely fucked up, and they’re perfectly willing to highlight inequalities that often remain implicit in

[shinyopals]

I really don't like the criticism that slash is by default not feminist. It's way too simplistic for what's, as you've shown by how much thinking you've done about just the one fic, a really quite complicated issue

[lefaym]

Jack/Ianto is sort of accepted background canon, but that's not really writing slash.

Well, I think that some people would argue that J/I is not "true" slash for that very reason -- because from S2 onwards, at least, it's not about teasing out the homoerotic subtext, but... oh well. :P

I tend to default female these days

Yay! :) Of course, the other interesting thing about your fic, writing Doctor/Rose, you have a male character who, as an alien, is much more malleable -- which I think is something that is particularly strong with the "just us girls" Tenth Doctor anyway, who is one of the few male figures that really seem to be constructed in terms of gaze, as female characters often are (if you look at pictures of DT, esp. professional ones, he's often giving you a sideling glance that is more typical of pictures of women), but because he is, ultimately, a male character, it does not affect him in the same way.

I've not read Wine Glasses, but from your description, I'm curious. If you could have a do-over and rewrite the bits of

[shinyopals]

Well, I think that some people would argue that J/I is not "true" slash for that very reason -- because from S2 onwards, at least, it's not about teasing out the homoerotic subtext, but... oh well. :P

XD There will never be a definitive fandom dictionary, will there? I love it, but it can't half be confusing sometimes to work out what the hell someone means!

Yay! :) Of course, the other interesting thing about your fic, writing Doctor/Rose, you have a male character who, as an alien, is much more malleable

Yeah, that can be something to play with (ignoring the annoying bits like "like a little girl" in School Reunion). He can quite realistically be given a "huh?" reaction to Things Humans Do if you want to explore an idea. I'm guessing if I ever end up doing a marriage between him and Rose, he'd quite happily change his name to Tyler, because it's only an official name, without a thought. And other things like that.

but because he is, ultimately, a male character, it does not affect him in the same way.Oh yeah. I still sort of

[lefaym]

I'm guessing if I ever end up doing a marriage between him and Rose, he'd quite happily change his name to Tyler, because it's only an official name, without a thought. And other things like that.

You know normally, I'd say AWESOME, except that in your 'verse you had him take on the surname Noble in Donna's honour, which was the most absolutely perfect thing he could have done. But the point remains that he took his surname to honour a woman. :)

I think I've tried for a bit of that in my writing - Rose having a bit of trouble with the local police because (amongst other things) she's female and the Doctor being a bit "why would that be a problem?" but it's a difficult balance because I don't want my fic to turn into Opal's Thoughts On Feminism.

Yeah, it can be a difficult balance to achieve, but at the same time, I don't think it's wrong to actively try to point out that stuff like that would happen in certain circumstances.

Of course, I'd be interested in Jack's perspective. I'm sure the fifty first century isn't some utopia

[verasteine]

So many thoughts -- don't know if I can cram them all into one comment cohesively, but I'll try.

I'm riveted, first off. I've read some thoughts of academics/scholars on the subject of why women write slash, and usually find them lacking in pinning down exactly what that motivation is (not fitting with my own) or in failing to grasp the diversity of reasons (for slash writers in general). Radical feminism (without defining that exactly) has a point that if women write predominantly about men, while men also write predominantly about men (and they do), very little will be written about women. That said, I don't necessarily agree with that point -- because it's not wrong to write what you want to write. And I don't believe women write slash to write about men because they buy into a heteronormative pattern that they must write about men.

I noticed something else in your post that made me pause. When talking about "Wine Glasses", a fic I must admit I did not read, you said, which I consider one of my worst fics, from a feminist

[lefaym]

I agree that anyone trying to come up with the One Definitive Reason that women write slash will inevitably fall short -- we're complex and we all have different motivations. Some theories about why may explain the motivations of some women, but one cannot generalise.

Radical feminism (without defining that exactly) has a point that if women write predominantly about men, while men also write predominantly about men (and they do), very little will be written about women. That said, I don't necessarily agree with that point -- because it's not wrong to write what you want to write.But at the same time, it's not wrote to notice that there is a lack of women who write about women and actively attempt to fill that gap, even if one's initial inclination is to write about men. I don't think it can be as simple as "what you want/desire to write", because what we want to write is inevitably informed by a culture that valorises male characters while regulating female characters to an auxiliary role. I'm not talking about writing a J/I

[used_songs]

I read something the other day that I found interesting, about a gay man who said that gay relationship were all the harder to make work because both partners had grown up with heteronormative patterns that were never applicable to their romantic lives. In short, they lacked role models.

Speaking as a lesbian, I would agree with this, particularly when it comes to running a household. My partner and I both sometimes slip into negative behaviors like assuming the other person will do the female-gendered task because neither of us wants to do it. Ultimately, we almost always end up splitting these jobs, but, to our discredit, we both have tried to play the you're-the-wife card.

[kribban]

LOL, back when I was living with a woman the numbe 1 argument was always household chores. We ended up writing a list detailing our respective chores. (This was after hours of discussion which chores were more difficult, of course.)