Meta: Sometimes I feel like a tool of phallocentric hetero-male-supremacy, and sometimes I don't.

[lefaym]

Over the last week or so, I've been thinking a lot about the way that my slash-writing in Torchwood/Who fandom fits in with my feminism. I'm trying to be very self-critical (i.e. I'm not trying to hand-wave problematic issues where they do exist), but at the same time, I really want to highlight the positive feminist experiences that have come out

Comments

[shinyopals]

I really don't like the criticism that slash is by default not feminist. It's way too simplistic for what's, as you've shown by how much thinking you've done about just the one fic, a really quite complicated issue!

I don't really write slash these days. I mean, if Torchwood is mentioned in my fics, Jack/Ianto is sort of accepted background canon, but that's not really writing slash. But I try to write the fic I do from as feminist a perspective as possible.

I suppose I wouldn't consider myself to think hugely deeply about it, but I certainly think a lot more about it than I used to. I tend to default female these days, when previously the character might have automatically been a bloke, just because that's the standard. I try to avoid gender stereotypes and jokes about them. But those, and a few other things, are all sort of shallow, really. Beyond sitting down and trying to avoid tokenism as best I can (while still trying to write a fairly realistic 21st century Earth, keep people in character and keep the plot going), I find it difficult to do any deeper analysis of my own work. I'm too close to the subject material, I think!

Heck, I still find it difficult to do a particularly deep analysis of the source material, most of the time, because I just find it so easy not to notice stuff unless it's really obvious!

I've not read Wine Glasses, but from your description, I'm curious. If you could have a do-over and rewrite the bits of it that trouble you, would you? And if so, how?

[lefaym]

Jack/Ianto is sort of accepted background canon, but that's not really writing slash.

Well, I think that some people would argue that J/I is not "true" slash for that very reason -- because from S2 onwards, at least, it's not about teasing out the homoerotic subtext, but... oh well. :P

I tend to default female these days

Yay! :) Of course, the other interesting thing about your fic, writing Doctor/Rose, you have a male character who, as an alien, is much more malleable -- which I think is something that is particularly strong with the "just us girls" Tenth Doctor anyway, who is one of the few male figures that really seem to be constructed in terms of gaze, as female characters often are (if you look at pictures of DT, esp. professional ones, he's often giving you a sideling glance that is more typical of pictures of women), but because he is, ultimately, a male character, it does not affect him in the same way.

I've not read Wine Glasses, but from your description, I'm curious. If you could have a do-over and rewrite the bits of it that trouble you, would you? And if so, how?

Ah, now that is the key question, isn't it? The truth is, I was aware of the problems it had when I was writing it, but I did it anyway because I did feel that it was realistic behaviour for both characters at that point in time. But it kept niggling at me, which was what prompted me to go out and look for feminist critiques.

I feel that the story is problematic, but as I said above, I did also discover that there was more going on there than I'd initially thought, in terms of power dynamics, and well, I'm confused. :P

[shinyopals]

Well, I think that some people would argue that J/I is not "true" slash for that very reason -- because from S2 onwards, at least, it's not about teasing out the homoerotic subtext, but... oh well. :P

XD There will never be a definitive fandom dictionary, will there? I love it, but it can't half be confusing sometimes to work out what the hell someone means!

Yay! :) Of course, the other interesting thing about your fic, writing Doctor/Rose, you have a male character who, as an alien, is much more malleable

Yeah, that can be something to play with (ignoring the annoying bits like "like a little girl" in School Reunion). He can quite realistically be given a "huh?" reaction to Things Humans Do if you want to explore an idea. I'm guessing if I ever end up doing a marriage between him and Rose, he'd quite happily change his name to Tyler, because it's only an official name, without a thought. And other things like that.

but because he is, ultimately, a male character, it does not affect him in the same way.

Oh yeah. I still sort of roll my eyes at his "Just walk about like you own the place. Works for me." directed at Martha in the Shakespeare Code.

I think I've tried for a bit of that in my writing - Rose having a bit of trouble with the local police because (amongst other things) she's female and the Doctor being a bit "why would that be a problem?" but it's a difficult balance because I don't want my fic to turn into Opal's Thoughts On Feminism.

Ah, now that is the key question, isn't it? The truth is, I was aware of the problems it had when I was writing it, but I did it anyway because I did feel that it was realistic behaviour for both characters at that point in time. But it kept niggling at me, which was what prompted me to go out and look for feminist critiques.

Well I guess I'd say just being aware of it (and the other complexities) is way more than most people! XD

Fanfic is difficult because you've got to try and balance your own personal feelings with how the characters might actually act. Along a different angle: we both known my Thoughts On Moffat, but I've still got to try and work things like Reinette and River into my personal canon because, whatever my feelings, they are part of the Doctor's life. You might not be comfortable with what you've written, but if it's realistic from a characterisation point of view then it probably should be explored. And far better that you explore it with a critical eye than just paint over it and justify it.

From where I'm sitting, having only read your description, it sounds like a perfectly reasonable direction to take things because Ianto Jones, having grown up in the same society (or thereabouts) that we have, would probably feel no misgivings at all about asserting his agency in that way, because that's the message we get.

Of course, I'd be interested in Jack's perspective. I'm sure the fifty first century isn't some utopia without sexism, but he might have a different idea of things. Can't speak for your fic writing in general, but I wish this was something canon explored a little more than the occasional "you people and your quaint little categories" comment. You may disagree (and you've probably watched Torchwood more than me) but while Jack's sexuality is generally something quite different to most things on TV, I think the potential for other changes to society isn't really explored enough.

Erm... I'm rambling. Can you tell I'm on some quite strong pain meds? XD

[lefaym]

I'm guessing if I ever end up doing a marriage between him and Rose, he'd quite happily change his name to Tyler, because it's only an official name, without a thought. And other things like that.

You know normally, I'd say AWESOME, except that in your 'verse you had him take on the surname Noble in Donna's honour, which was the most absolutely perfect thing he could have done. But the point remains that he took his surname to honour a woman. :)

I think I've tried for a bit of that in my writing - Rose having a bit of trouble with the local police because (amongst other things) she's female and the Doctor being a bit "why would that be a problem?" but it's a difficult balance because I don't want my fic to turn into Opal's Thoughts On Feminism.

Yeah, it can be a difficult balance to achieve, but at the same time, I don't think it's wrong to actively try to point out that stuff like that would happen in certain circumstances.

Of course, I'd be interested in Jack's perspective. I'm sure the fifty first century isn't some utopia without sexism, but he might have a different idea of things. Can't speak for your fic writing in general, but I wish this was something canon explored a little more than the occasional "you people and your quaint little categories" comment.

Yeah, I agree. But I think the problem with representing this in fic, or anywhere else, is that we don't really have any other model to go on. I'd say it's pretty clear form SitL/FotD that there is still a gender binary operational in the 51st century, although bi/omni-sexual is the default sexual orientation. I think we're supposed to assume that women are just as likely to be in positions of power as men, and that women are not shamed in any way for being openly sexual (although River is clearly much more toned down than Jack and John -- one could explain this away as a Time Agent thing, but in truth, I don't think they could get away with a female character who acted like Jack does in TEC/TDD), and that marriage is not necessarily about two people constantly living together in a traditional-style relationship. The relationship between the Doctor and River did not seem to be heteronormative, although the relationship between Evangelina and... that guy... definitely was, as was the relationship between Donna and Lee.

Anyway, I'm the one rambling now, so... :)