The Old Fanfic Arguments

[ladyjestyr]

I've noted discussions about fandom and fanfic popping up in a few non-fannish locations of late, prompted largely by recognition of the Organization for Transformative Works on more mainstream blogs like BoingBoing and John Scalzi's Whatever. It has, of course, prompted the usual debates from detractors and defenders, and really there's nothing

Comments

[rolinator]

Given Anne McCaffrey and David/Leigh Eddings' work is basically of the same level as fanfic, I can't agree that fanfic doesn't have merits.

[ladyjestyr]

Welllll, tangentially, I have trouble with statements saying "of the same level as fanfic", because fanfic varies so widely. (Assuming you mean quality-wise, as they're clearly not fanfic in the sense of borrowing another canon.)

I've read fanfic that made me click the back button within a paragraph, so poor was its execution or so nonsensical its concept. On the other hand, I've read published fiction where I can't get past the first page because it's so fucking bad, too.

I've also read fanfic that is as well-written and tightly-edited as any good published work (leaving aside the Great Works Of Literature [tm] of course). The ratio of good-to-bad is higher for profic than fanfic largely because anyone can publish fanfic with absolutely no quality checks at all, whereas the vast majority of profic is edited and polished carefully. Fanfic that is as carefully edited and polished as published work is often comparable in quality - and it's not actually all that rare, depending on where you look.

[wtimmins]

Maybe because people don't often run around thrusting their cooking into people's hands or making it widely available?

Granted, of course, not all fanfic falls under this category, but I'm reminded of being at work and people displaying their drawings proudly and having to sort of make pleasant noises while thinking 'That looks like utter crap.'

Granted, every once in a while someone pulls out stuff that's jaw-droppingly good, which is nice... but on the whole if someone offers to show me artwork in a casual setting I have to steel myself to be polite.

[adamjury]

Some of that is simply the difference between "stuff you can show off to co-workers" [writing, artwork, knitting, the awesome new rims for your truck, etc] and "stuff that you can't" [food that you've already eaten, the great play you made in the baseball game on the weekend, etc.] -- looking at a random assortment of my f-list, there are people talking about their cooking, knitting, DJing, exercising, and all sorts of other leisure activities/hobbies.

And original writing from everyone is on the same crap to good scale as fanfic. What gamer hasn't had to hear about someone's great idea for a homebrew setting that was totally silly to everyone except the people in that gaming group?

[ladyjestyr]

I rarely see fanfic writers doing the equivalent of "thrusting their cooking into people's hands" - that would, in my mind, be the equivalent of me commenting on your LJ or sending you an email saying "hey, check out this story I wrote".* Me posting about it on /my/ journal is quite different; there's no obligation on you or any other reader to respond. So I'm not entirely sure the analogy stands.

In any case, I don't see the relevance of "having to steel yourself to be polite" to the issue of writing being treated differently from any other hobby in the fashion I described in my post.

[* - I honestly would be very surprised to hear of incidents of a fanfic writer actively soliciting for readers outside of their own space or appropriate community spaces (shared fanfic communities, fanfic mailing lists, etc). It's just not done, if for no other reason than the fact that people outside the fandom community aren't the intended audience for the fic in the first place.]

[wtimmins]

Thinking about it, the issue is perhaps that with certain hobbies lack of skill is more obvious.

If you burn brownies, you are less likely to hand them out to friends. If you keep clocking yourself into trees while playing touch football, you have a pretty good idea of your skill level.

I think writing is less 'certain,' in many respects; there's basic technique, like spelling things correctly. But whether it's effective prose? Um. Not obvious!

[cupiscent]

It's not just fanfic. Writing is only respected if it's been validated by the Stamp Of Approval that is publication and/or payment.

Recently I've taken to answered the "what do you do?" question with "I'm a writer", despite the fact that this invariably leads to the question, "What have you had published?" to which I have to answer, "I'm finishing my first novel at the moment." The inference: that one can only claim the label of writer if one has had things published. (Not to mention the commonness of, especially in spec-fic in Australia, the phrase, "Nothing in a paying market", suggesting that only sales that actually earn money are to be respected

[wtimmins]

Good points... I think a lot of outsiders perceive fanfic as 'wannabes.'

There is no overt way to tell a happy hobbyist from a frustrated would-be professional.

Publication provides a simplistic metric for people to feel assurance that it 'matters.' Not fair, but there you go.

[ladyjestyr]

There is no overt way to tell a happy hobbyist from a frustrated would-be professional.

...except when you have hobbyists themselves telling you that they're perfectly happy with their hobby and have no desire to be a professional, it's somewhat insulting to tell them that no, no, all hobbyists want to be professional and that their satisfaction as a hobbyist is tantamount to an admission of inadequacy.

[wtimmins]

It's VERY insulting, yeah.

Devil's Advocate

[cyron]

To play devil's advocate, if someone cooks for a hobby then they are not ever likely to be called a 'real' cook.

Re: Devil's Advocate

[foomf]

Not true. There are at least three people on my flist and dozens in the food_porn community who are real cooks in any sense you would like to use, and who also cook for a hobby.

Re: Devil's Advocate

[cyron]

Perhaps I should have clarified that better. If someone cooks for a hobby, but does not (and has not) make their living from it, they're unlikely to be called a "real" cook, they'll just be a hobbyist, however good their actual cooking is.

Re: Devil's Advocate

[ladyjestyr]

True - but no-one turns around and says the hobbyist's cooking is no good _because_ they don't want to make a living from it, nor claims that all hobbyist cooks really want to be professional cooks and any that aren't professionals are therefore bad - because "if they were any good, they'd be professional".

This is a straw man argument that's frequently brought up against fanfic writing - and probably any hobbyist writing, in fact: the assumption that Publication is the inescapable goal for any writer, and that those who aren't seeking publication are therefore automatically inferior because they're wannabes who aren't good enough to be published.