I have a question

[kisc]

Warning: there is some NSFW language herein, and some of it is spoken by me. In addition, there is an actual Gay Man, and I love him like my other brother. And we talk like brothers. It ... isn't always pretty. Those of you who are not regularly a part of the discussions held by the community formed around MasterNinja.com may want to bypass this

Comments

[kisc]

You are my sweet muther-effing baboo. Every time I ask a stupid question, you seem to have a better answer for it than even my smart few Mormon friends (Except Ruth-Ruth. I know what his answer is going to be, and he is probably right

[kisc]

PPS Unless it was YOUR puppy.

PPPS And by puppy, I mean ... uh ... never mind.

[ruthanolis]

I've been thinking about this myself lately so here's my worthless couple of Australian cents [about one and a half US cents ... >_The Proclamation on the Family: "Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God

[kisc]

This is actually the best thing I've ever heard a fellow Mormon say about why marriage is such a big deal.

This, I shall memory.

[thraeryn]

(imagine this is a black & white newsreel playing in your local theater; it makes more sense that way and is more insulting because you live so far in the past)
NEWS FLASH!!! Marriages in this country are no longer only able to be performed by members of the cloth!

Yes, that's right! Government officials of all shapes and sizes have recently been stepping up to become "Justices of the Peace", which gives them the ability to marry two people just like an ordained priest or minister! And here's the part that will really have you reaching for your hats: some of those justices are LADIES! *shot of woman in well-appointed library* Sure, I'll be married by her ANY old day! And the government hasn't stopped there! Federal laws on the income tax have been altered in respect to married couples!

Yes, marriage sure has changed a lot these days! But one thing remains the same: it's all about two people living happily, together.
newsreel ends. . . "The Church" hasn't "owned" marriage in years and years now; "marriage" is a government-

[kisc]

Your point about religion no longer owning marriage is a good one, but doesn't really address my retarded-style problem.

Not that there is a need for you to do so. I think your news-reel thing makes your point :) Whether I'm being bigoted or not, I'm probably being a little ... oldschool about it.

[thraeryn]

Y'know what would solve your problem? If the gummint got OUT of the marriage business and left it exclusively in religion's domain. Government forms would stop caring whether you'd had some stupid ceremony, and religions could spring up here, there, and everywhere to let different people that were in love get together and express it. Mormons already know they have differences with the Methodists who have differences with Judaism who have differences with Buddhism who have differences with Islam. I don't think it would upset that much.

[kisc]

Actually, that is an idea I could get behind.

We should totally start a country based on the idea that the government is supposed to stay the hell out of people's religious ... wait a MINUTE!

Seriously though. Wishful thinking or not, it is a good idea, and one I would absolutely vote for.

[lonelocust]

Huh, you changed your tune. One of the things you have said that I respected the most (probably *the* thing, actually) was that you thought homosexuality was a sin but that you were in favor of gay marriage because your belief that homosexuality was a sin was a religious belief, and you thought that laws shouldn't be based on your religious beliefs.

What made you change your mind?

[kisc]

Official position of the Church. I believe that this institution is led by men who literally speak with God. So, if they say a thing, I bloody well better decide, eventually, to agree with them.

I am yet torn, but I expect I will continue in the way that I have done: hate the sin, love the sinner. So to speak. Hate is a pretty strong word for the general antipathy I have for homosexuality these days. Love is pretty close to what I feel for Kalikloud.

(In fact, it is probably better for our relationship that I am straight - we'd totally be cybering and whatnot if I were gay, and that is so gay.)

But, yeah, I still think that homosexual marriage is mostly none of my business, but believe that I ought to be feeling otherwise about it.

And thus my "official position" - that is, if I had to vote on an amendment, say - is that homosexual marriage should not be legal. As that is my official position, I'm left supposing that I have to classify myself as against.

[lonelocust]

I just don't even know what to say to you. I don't know how to respond to someone purposefully and knowingly against their better judgement submitting their ethical will to another. Why do you ask for my opinion? You almost universally recognize that my opinion is more rational and reasoned, and that you're inclined to agree with me but think that you should agree with someone else- someone whose reasoning you can't comprehend and don't really agree with- so that's what you're going to do.

The fundamentals of my religion include a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. I suppose, then, that there is little other than straight-up hate-spitting that religiously offends me more than your deliberate rejection of your own better judgement. Not that that should mean anything to you, but it's what is on my mind.

Overall, I'm just filled with a deep well of sadness.

[kisc]

What if MY better judgment is wrong

[emvesuvius]

Biogt = NOUN: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

By this definition, you are not a bigot. You seem to view those living that lifestyle as doing so in error, a definition which you would also likely apply to junkies, prostitutes, heathen/Satanists and terrorists. By your indications, you do not feel any of these groups are "less" human than yourself, which is probably the ultimate marker.

[kisc]

Actually, I kind of like Satanists - their music kicks much ass.

When I think of junkies though, I think of That Fuck From Seattle Who Shall Not Be Named, and I don't like that kind of music at all.

And frankly, I'm not very partial to my own group either.