Comments | kisc: I have a question

kisc

I have a question

Oct 27, 2006 22:11

Warning: there is some NSFW language herein, and some of it is spoken by me. In addition, there is an actual Gay Man, and I love him like my other brother. And we talk like brothers. It ... isn't always pretty. Those of you who are not regularly a part of the discussions held by the community formed around MasterNinja.com may want to bypass this ( Read more... )

gay marriage, my life, current events, faith, homework, introspection, journalism, fear, politics, weingarten

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lonelocust October 28 2006, 18:18:56 UTC

Huh, you changed your tune. One of the things you have said that I respected the most (probably *the* thing, actually) was that you thought homosexuality was a sin but that you were in favor of gay marriage because your belief that homosexuality was a sin was a religious belief, and you thought that laws shouldn't be based on your religious beliefs.

What made you change your mind?

kisc October 29 2006, 03:13:38 UTC

Official position of the Church. I believe that this institution is led by men who literally speak with God. So, if they say a thing, I bloody well better decide, eventually, to agree with them.

I am yet torn, but I expect I will continue in the way that I have done: hate the sin, love the sinner. So to speak. Hate is a pretty strong word for the general antipathy I have for homosexuality these days. Love is pretty close to what I feel for Kalikloud.

(In fact, it is probably better for our relationship that I am straight - we'd totally be cybering and whatnot if I were gay, and that is so gay.)

But, yeah, I still think that homosexual marriage is mostly none of my business, but believe that I ought to be feeling otherwise about it.

And thus my "official position" - that is, if I had to vote on an amendment, say - is that homosexual marriage should not be legal. As that is my official position, I'm left supposing that I have to classify myself as against.

lonelocust October 29 2006, 19:26:19 UTC

I just don't even know what to say to you. I don't know how to respond to someone purposefully and knowingly against their better judgement submitting their ethical will to another. Why do you ask for my opinion? You almost universally recognize that my opinion is more rational and reasoned, and that you're inclined to agree with me but think that you should agree with someone else- someone whose reasoning you can't comprehend and don't really agree with- so that's what you're going to do.

The fundamentals of my religion include a free and responsible search for truth and meaning. I suppose, then, that there is little other than straight-up hate-spitting that religiously offends me more than your deliberate rejection of your own better judgement. Not that that should mean anything to you, but it's what is on my mind.

Overall, I'm just filled with a deep well of sadness.

kisc October 30 2006, 00:50:46 UTC

What if MY better judgment is wrong ( ... )

kisc October 30 2006, 00:52:26 UTC

Oops, I linked to the wrong comment of Thaeryn's. The one above that.

lonelocust October 30 2006, 17:19:06 UTC

Who ever claimed that we (in which case I mean "humanity" or even "the smartiest of all smarty pantses as a collective") know everything that can be known? Is that a reason to dismiss the capacities that allow us to know the things that we do know? It is the nature of reason to always be questioning and to never sit back on the laurels of "knowledge ( ... )

kisc October 30 2006, 18:50:14 UTC

They left the church because they thought that blacks should not have the priesthood, which belief makes then racist. Just because they believed that a new doctrine was wrong, that didn't make it wrong. Everyone knows that racism is wrong, now ( ... )

lonelocust October 30 2006, 20:48:10 UTC

What about the people who questioned whether it was right to exclude blacks in the first place, before they were declared fit to be elders? What about the people who didn't question that? Who's right ( ... )

kisc October 31 2006, 18:03:37 UTC

The thing that is new to me is that we are being told "if an opportunity comes to vote on an amendment banning gay marriage, get up on that." Usually, there is a great deal of "lead by example, vote your conscience" kind of stuff, but little direct suggestion regarding politics.

There are a lot of things that I cannot answer.

Blacks and the priesthood is one that continues to baffle me. As you've suggested, what changed? I can tell you that, according to his account, the President who reversed the whole thing had got to wondering himself why black men couldn't have the priesthood. There is, again, a lot of off-pulpit speculation, but no canonical answer.

Joseph Smith very often indicated that most of the revelation he received was in answer to a question. The implication is that the Lord doesn't always provide answers until we know what to ask. Chuck's statements on this topic have been particularly relevant to me - it seems to me that I have been asking the wrong question ( ... )

Nevertheless... elfritzo October 31 2006, 09:20:25 UTC

"I don't know how to respond to someone purposefully and knowingly against their better judgement SUBMITTING THEIR ethical WILL to another ( ... )

Re: Nevertheless... lonelocust October 31 2006, 16:56:43 UTC

For one thing, Kisc doesn't want a break from me. He came to my LJ and asked me to come respond to this; previously I had ignored it because it just made me cry. Kisc desires for me to come prod his beliefs, as he's told me explicitely on many occasions.

I suppose one could react the way the Romans did and crucify him.

There's this thing called "appeal to emotion". It's this thing called a "logical fallacy". Perhaps you should read a book and look it up.

Imagine singing that song, or one much like it every Sunday for the first dozen or so years of your life. And BELIEVING it. Every word.I actually don't have to imagine that at all, because I did it. I am deeply deeply ashamed of my previous beliefs (though I try to get over that shame, as I really shouldn't be ashamed of things that gave me perspective and made me grow in my life). I was also taught to obey. I just used my brain and realized that to love is more important than to obey. I'm sure I could toss out some verses about that, amd I'm sure you can just think of them ( ... )

Re: Nevertheless... elfritzo October 31 2006, 19:34:46 UTC

> For one thing, Kisc doesn't want a break from me. He came to my LJ and ( ... )

Re: Nevertheless... lonelocust October 31 2006, 21:32:51 UTC

I'm afraid I have no control over the things that the baby Jesus wants you to shove up your ass. I am but a humble conduit of his letters.

Re: Nevertheless... elfritzo October 31 2006, 22:05:03 UTC

Well, I've never been one for shooting the messenger.

Poking bears on the other hand...

I find it difficult to believe someone as set upon following her own will as you seem to be could be convinced to act as a humble conduit.

Downright miraculous, really.

So while your message is difficult for me to understand, indeed it makes no sense to me, and I confess that I have yet to obey, I thank you for your example of willingness to subject your will to His in delivering it.

Re: Nevertheless... kisc October 31 2006, 17:43:59 UTC

Dear, sweet, elfritzo

In the zoo, would you poke a bear?

Laura is much more attractive and intelligent than any bear I ever met. But poking her is liable to be equally effecti....

Oh crap, she already saw it. I'm sorry. It was nice knowing you.

And for the record, I did ask her to come prod my beliefs. I actually forgot that for a moment.

Re: Nevertheless... elfritzo October 31 2006, 18:28:43 UTC

"In the zoo, would you poke a bear?"

How did you know about that? TELL ME!!!

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