I've now seen through 6x06, "Sacrifice of Angels." And I know why attempting to watch just the first part of a seven-part megastory before bed is a bad idea (I was up until five o'clock in the morning
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Yeah, I remember Odo's arc here bugging the crap out of me, too. Once again, it was something that could have been a really interesting bit of character exploration if it had been handled slightly differently, but it never felt in-character to me. (I'm definitely looking forward to re-watching it and seeing if my opinion on that changes, but, sadly, I seriously doubt it will.)
Speaking of het pairings, I'm getting quite attached to Jadzia Dax/Worf. Worf on his own still annoys the hell out of me, but Dax seems more than able to keep him in line, and they have good chemistry together.
See? I told you it works better than you'd expect. :)
I get the sense that, despite his jokes about improving Bashir by making him more cynical, he really valued the idea of Bashir as an open, trusting innocent.
Aww, yeah, I think that's a good insight.
On the subject of minor characters, I find myself weirdly fond of Weyoun.Weyoun is kind of fun. I credit Jeffrey Combs, who is always weirdly appealing, somehow, even when he's playing slimy
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It's really a shame that the most potentially fascinating character is the one worst served by the narrative. Character development and relationships are among the show's major strengths, but not where Odo is concerned.
Long thoughts are long:skywaterblueJuly 23 2010, 02:09:07 UTC
Ziyal was very much a missed opportunity. The Cardassian makeup hides it, but they went through three different actors to try and make it work and I think they just never figured out what they wanted to do with her. I like her as a metaphor for everything that's gone wrong with the Cardassian culture, though: you get the feeling that even if she wasn't half-Bajoran, there may not be a lot of place on Cardassia Prime for a sensitive artist
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Re: Long thoughts are long:kindkitJuly 23 2010, 03:07:48 UTC
other humans don't get to judge the worthiness of people to be bornOther humans also don't get to say: "hey, you guys, you have to sacrifice everything you are, give up all the people you love and who love you, and in one case die prematurely so that we can eventually be born." Which is what the whole damn settlement does in the episode. And I found the episode so manipulative (because it made the settlement ridiculously Edenic, all full of cute laughing children and no sickness or starvation or disputes) that I was seriously irked by the idea that the whole crew (even O'Brien!) would happily make that sacrifice. It was all very emotional-blackmail
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Re: Long thoughts are long:skywaterblueJuly 23 2010, 03:24:40 UTC
True, but: Needs of the Many or Needs of the Few. Trek never really decided and that's where this episode plays. It may have been manipulative, but he ultimately strips their ability to go through with their choice. He doesn't so much 'give' her life as he decides what she can and can't do with it.
And to be fair to Kira, she makes that decision even after old sexy Odo offers her the other path. It's not a blind choice for her.
I think it's good that he wants to be part of the world of others. I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here. They're not the same species, and it's possibly the biggest species gap in all of Trek but there are some aspects of Odo's life that are very Bajoran. Some very real, day to day aspects. And even if there weren't, he's known her a very long time.
Re: Long thoughts are long:kindkitJuly 23 2010, 04:21:40 UTC
I guess I don't see the situation as the many vs. the few. If the ship went back in time, those 8000 people would only exist in potential--exactly like the future lives, partnerships, and descendents the crew could have if they went home instead. I don't see how the crew had any more of a moral obligation to bring those particular 8000 lives into being than the other lives they could create by going home. And to my mind, the implicit argument that they were obliged to stay and reproduce in order to create those 8000 descendents is not far off from, for example, the claim that if people use birth control they're murdering their potential children. It skeeved me that the episode took the obligation claim so seriously and never gave much voice to the other perspective.
I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here.Kira and Odo have Bajoran culture in common, yes. But Kira is not of Odo's species, and to the Founders the only species that matters is their own. Kira is "alien" in that sense, and she's also alien just in the sense of being
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Also: I feel like Garak is a little horrified by what Julian is becoming, because he feels responsible. Or maybe just because he got played by him. (There's really no indication he knew before.)
Eh? I see no evidence of Julian becoming anything nasty, unless you're referring to future developments I haven't seen. (And I really hope you're not, because I'm trying to stay as unspoiled as possible.) I don't think Bashir had "played" anyone, either. He concealed the fact that he's engineered because it would ruin his career, get his parents in trouble, and risk making people treat him like a monster or a freak. Now, admittedly Garak isn't human and probably doesn't share the historically-contingent human (or Federation generally?) attitude towards genetic engineering, but that kind of deep secrecy is hard to break. And it's not as though Garak is exactly forthcoming about himself.
Nope. I just think that Garak liked Bashir as the naive innocent, and to discover that Bashir was lying to him - the whole time and he never even discovered it, him, the spymaster - is deeply disturbing. Which I think is very human of him, to be attracted to what he thinks is the opposite and then repelled when he realizes they're not so different - that Bashir is capable of lying as much about his past as Garak has done.
Okay, I see what you're saying. So it's not what Julian is becoming, exactly, so much as what Julian always has been but that Garak has never noticed: complicated. I love Garak, but I think he really does enjoy using people as audiences for his performance of The Drama of Garak . . . otherwise he wouldn't give all those little hints of how he's really much, much more than mere tailor. And all those suggestions of deceit and darkness and guilt work best if your audience is sort of straightforward and naive, because they'll be ever so impressed. So the sudden revelation that Bashir is a fellow actor, as it were, could be awfully disconcerting for Garak. Although I think he'll get to like it before long. *grins*
Weyoun is my favorite non-regular character on DS9. (After Garak. And Dukat. And... well, alright, but he's up the top somewhere.)
That's a good point that the Vorta are never portrayed sympathetically - especially compared to the Jem'hadar, who do get a few chances to be the 'honourable warriors on the wrong side' archetype, despite being just as much obsequious slaves of the Founders...
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Speaking of het pairings, I'm getting quite attached to Jadzia Dax/Worf. Worf on his own still annoys the hell out of me, but Dax seems more than able to keep him in line, and they have good chemistry together.
See? I told you it works better than you'd expect. :)
I get the sense that, despite his jokes about improving Bashir by making him more cynical, he really valued the idea of Bashir as an open, trusting innocent.
Aww, yeah, I think that's a good insight.
On the subject of minor characters, I find myself weirdly fond of Weyoun.Weyoun is kind of fun. I credit Jeffrey Combs, who is always weirdly appealing, somehow, even when he's playing slimy ( ... )
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And to be fair to Kira, she makes that decision even after old sexy Odo offers her the other path. It's not a blind choice for her.
I think it's good that he wants to be part of the world of others. I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here. They're not the same species, and it's possibly the biggest species gap in all of Trek but there are some aspects of Odo's life that are very Bajoran. Some very real, day to day aspects. And even if there weren't, he's known her a very long time.
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I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here.Kira and Odo have Bajoran culture in common, yes. But Kira is not of Odo's species, and to the Founders the only species that matters is their own. Kira is "alien" in that sense, and she's also alien just in the sense of being ( ... )
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Eh? I see no evidence of Julian becoming anything nasty, unless you're referring to future developments I haven't seen. (And I really hope you're not, because I'm trying to stay as unspoiled as possible.) I don't think Bashir had "played" anyone, either. He concealed the fact that he's engineered because it would ruin his career, get his parents in trouble, and risk making people treat him like a monster or a freak. Now, admittedly Garak isn't human and probably doesn't share the historically-contingent human (or Federation generally?) attitude towards genetic engineering, but that kind of deep secrecy is hard to break. And it's not as though Garak is exactly forthcoming about himself.
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Also, I totally adore Weyoun. Which I'm sure will surprise you not a jot.
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Yay!!!!
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That's a good point that the Vorta are never portrayed sympathetically - especially compared to the Jem'hadar, who do get a few chances to be the 'honourable warriors on the wrong side' archetype, despite being just as much obsequious slaves of the Founders...
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