I've now seen through 6x06, "Sacrifice of Angels." And I know why attempting to watch just the first part of a seven-part megastory before bed is a bad idea (I was up until five o'clock in the morning
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Re: Long thoughts are long:kindkitJuly 23 2010, 03:07:48 UTC
other humans don't get to judge the worthiness of people to be born
Other humans also don't get to say: "hey, you guys, you have to sacrifice everything you are, give up all the people you love and who love you, and in one case die prematurely so that we can eventually be born." Which is what the whole damn settlement does in the episode. And I found the episode so manipulative (because it made the settlement ridiculously Edenic, all full of cute laughing children and no sickness or starvation or disputes) that I was seriously irked by the idea that the whole crew (even O'Brien!) would happily make that sacrifice. It was all very emotional-blackmail.
I see your point about Odo, and I do think his decision was creepy, in large part because ultimately it wasn't about ethics at all, it was about Kira and his hope that if Kira lived, she and his other self might eventually get together. However, I think it comes from a different kind of selfishness than the Founders' behavior. The Founders are ultimately narcissistic--they're all one being in some ways, with this endless masturbatory self-congratulation about how they're better than everyone else. They're only capable of loving themselves. Odo acts out of love for another person, a person who is literally alien to him, and a person whose love he is by no means sure of getting in return. Odo gives Kira life, and in so doing causes 8000 people never to have existed, but it's not really a gesture of control because he can't control what she will do.
Re: Long thoughts are long:skywaterblueJuly 23 2010, 03:24:40 UTC
True, but: Needs of the Many or Needs of the Few. Trek never really decided and that's where this episode plays. It may have been manipulative, but he ultimately strips their ability to go through with their choice. He doesn't so much 'give' her life as he decides what she can and can't do with it.
And to be fair to Kira, she makes that decision even after old sexy Odo offers her the other path. It's not a blind choice for her.
I think it's good that he wants to be part of the world of others. I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here. They're not the same species, and it's possibly the biggest species gap in all of Trek but there are some aspects of Odo's life that are very Bajoran. Some very real, day to day aspects. And even if there weren't, he's known her a very long time.
Re: Long thoughts are long:kindkitJuly 23 2010, 04:21:40 UTC
I guess I don't see the situation as the many vs. the few. If the ship went back in time, those 8000 people would only exist in potential--exactly like the future lives, partnerships, and descendents the crew could have if they went home instead. I don't see how the crew had any more of a moral obligation to bring those particular 8000 lives into being than the other lives they could create by going home. And to my mind, the implicit argument that they were obliged to stay and reproduce in order to create those 8000 descendents is not far off from, for example, the claim that if people use birth control they're murdering their potential children. It skeeved me that the episode took the obligation claim so seriously and never gave much voice to the other perspective.
I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here.
Kira and Odo have Bajoran culture in common, yes. But Kira is not of Odo's species, and to the Founders the only species that matters is their own. Kira is "alien" in that sense, and she's also alien just in the sense of being another individual, whereas the Founders are not fully individuated. As a corporate entity, the Founders only love itself, whereas Odo makes what I think is a basic ethical leap to caring about another person. Unfortunately alt!Odo seems to have gotten stuck in what is still a fairly solipsistic position, in which the only person that matters is the person he loves.
Other humans also don't get to say: "hey, you guys, you have to sacrifice everything you are, give up all the people you love and who love you, and in one case die prematurely so that we can eventually be born." Which is what the whole damn settlement does in the episode. And I found the episode so manipulative (because it made the settlement ridiculously Edenic, all full of cute laughing children and no sickness or starvation or disputes) that I was seriously irked by the idea that the whole crew (even O'Brien!) would happily make that sacrifice. It was all very emotional-blackmail.
I see your point about Odo, and I do think his decision was creepy, in large part because ultimately it wasn't about ethics at all, it was about Kira and his hope that if Kira lived, she and his other self might eventually get together. However, I think it comes from a different kind of selfishness than the Founders' behavior. The Founders are ultimately narcissistic--they're all one being in some ways, with this endless masturbatory self-congratulation about how they're better than everyone else. They're only capable of loving themselves. Odo acts out of love for another person, a person who is literally alien to him, and a person whose love he is by no means sure of getting in return. Odo gives Kira life, and in so doing causes 8000 people never to have existed, but it's not really a gesture of control because he can't control what she will do.
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And to be fair to Kira, she makes that decision even after old sexy Odo offers her the other path. It's not a blind choice for her.
I think it's good that he wants to be part of the world of others. I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here. They're not the same species, and it's possibly the biggest species gap in all of Trek but there are some aspects of Odo's life that are very Bajoran. Some very real, day to day aspects. And even if there weren't, he's known her a very long time.
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I do think 'alien' is a bit of a stretch here.
Kira and Odo have Bajoran culture in common, yes. But Kira is not of Odo's species, and to the Founders the only species that matters is their own. Kira is "alien" in that sense, and she's also alien just in the sense of being another individual, whereas the Founders are not fully individuated. As a corporate entity, the Founders only love itself, whereas Odo makes what I think is a basic ethical leap to caring about another person. Unfortunately alt!Odo seems to have gotten stuck in what is still a fairly solipsistic position, in which the only person that matters is the person he loves.
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