[parenting] unconditional love and religion

[kettunainen]

I was raised Catholic and was taught that God loves us unconditionally.

If God loves us unconditionally, then why does Hell exist?

Comments

[heraldofchaos]

because if god, loves us, and forgives us for anything we do... then we can do anything we want and still get into heaven. the church had to enforce its social program somehow, so they included a spiritual "sit in the bad corner till judgment day" place to keep the populous in check.

and its easier to have everyone listen to you if you have the power to send them to hell, keeps them coming to church and paying tithes, and getting free land, and... and...

[kettunainen]

so you're saying that hell is a construct of the church?

[mightydoll]

actually, yes. It doesn't exist in either testament.

[kettunainen]

that's just craziness! I'm not saying I don't believe you; just saying how crazy it is that SO FREAKING MANY PEOPLE believe otherwise. Evil church bastards.

[kettunainen]

i haven't read the text and don't care to, so i'll take your word for what's in there. thus: IF we turn away from him, IF we deny him truth, IF we sin without guilt, etc., THEN we go to hell. Those are all conditions under which we will go to hell, be punished, feel lost and/or abandoned. In being punished, feeling lost or abandoned, do we not also feel as though god has deserted us? Regardless of whether his love for us has diminished, our perception of it's having diminished is what counts, right? And if that's the case, then hasn't his love, therefore, become conditional?

[keda]

I ask the same thing all the time...

also does he not forgive all sins?

[kettunainen]

supposedly... but if that's the case, then hell shouldn't exist...

[squid_pants]

Hell doesn't exist. Neither does god obviously. There is no evidence for either of those hypotheses. God is a surrogate parent for those who cannot stand to leave a childish state and feel the need to have a strong parent to tell them what to do rather than actualize their own adulthood. Hell was formulated as a big threat to make sure you left all your property to the church after death and as thought control in life for those so weak and cowardly as to fall for religion

[kettunainen]

I think it's really unfortunate that so many people fall into the blame game as a result of the "devil made me do it" mindset. One of the things I appreciate most about paganism in general is its focus (as far as I can tell) on personal responsibility. I'm really grateful for it. And paganism/deism/my delusions/whatever has definitely added a hugely positive dimension to my existence.

:)

[insolent_cherub]

And to add to foxesdaughter

[curgoth]

Hrm. I tried to work out the Catholic explanation for this. The best I came up with is that, by refusing the various methods of salvation offered through the Church, one is refusing God's love. If one rejects God's love, one is subject to God's wrath; 'Luke 12:5 records Jesus speaking about God's Judgment: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath Power to cast into Hell, I say unto you, Fear Him."'

Which seems to come down to; God loves us all unconditionally, but don't piss him off.

[kettunainen]

Ruling through fear is antithetical to ruling through love.

"but don't piss him off"

or else what? "If you piss him off, then $whatever" is a conditional statement.

[curgoth]

Like so many other things in religion, especially Catholicism, it seems to come down to splitting hairs; God will still love you while being wrathful and condemning you to eternal torment, (well, mostly eternal, at least until the Day of Judgment)

I'm not at all convinced it makes sense, but then, I'm an Atheist (among other things, but that's a longer story). I personally find that the idea of an omnibenevolent, loving god is not supported by my direct observation of the world or the accumulated evidence of history.

[kettunainen]

God will still love you while being wrathful and condemning you to eternal torment...

This is the part that I don't get.

I personally find that the idea of an omnibenevolent, loving god is not supported by my direct observation of the world or the accumulated evidence of history.

I don't believe it is, either, but so many people need that sort of hope to hang onto. I personally believe that gods exist (I'm pagan, btw), but they aren't necessarily all-knowing, all-powerful, and/or all-loving, etc. They're just bigger than we are, live on a completely different plane of existence, and can sometimes serve as guides for humans who seek them out. That's my ever-evolving take on it anyway.