Never After: a few thoughts

[kelkyag]

Sunday I saw Never After. It's cute and bouncy. Much of the music is fun; the orchestra was excellent. It pushed at my definition of 'fairy tale' -- I think it isn't quite one, to me, but instead belongs over in whatever one calls the space Gilbert and Sullivan operettas are in

Comments

[desireearmfeldt]

Re "Men Men Men" -- I feel like Les's coming out happens over the course of the show, and is initially hampered by the fact that no one has ever told her there *could* be such a thing as lesbians. So she starts from "I don't wanna get married because being the girl in a marriage sucks and anyway love is icky," progresses to "no, I really don't want men, what's wrong with you guys, I must just be destined to live alone," to "Oh, wait, you mean I could marry a *woman*? Better rethink some stuff -- but I still don't see how love and independence are compatible," to "OK, I really am a lesbian, I really do love you, and we'll figure out how to make the balance work."

[firstfrost]

My take on it was more that she was happy to treat everyone as People, and got exasperated when they reclassified themselves as Men, which are defined as people who want her. (Hans is fine until he expresses interest, and then he's a problem. Robinson is fine until he expresses interest too. The princes are only defined by being interested in her.). People are fine, it's just Men she hates. :)

[dpolicar]

Incidentally, if you haven't seen them, I point you to this post, and the comments on it, which echo your concerns, and this post, from the director, which discusses some related issues.

[kelkyag]

Thank you!

... though I will note that is only about one aspect of my concerns with the show. Still, it's the aspect that involved real people more than fictional character ...

[dpolicar]

Absolutely! Sorry, I didn't mean to dismiss your other concerns. (Actually, I share a number of them, which is strongly related to why I wasn't directly involved with this show, although admittedly the fact that it's a musical had more to do with it.)

[kelkyag]

Not a problem at all. I would be interested in hearing your other concerns, though from other threads it sounds like livejournal would not be your medium of choice for that.

[coraline]

http://ceelove.livejournal.com/65703.html

cee is looking for commentary on the script -- i found yours to be one of the more useful entries about things that were problematic. would you be willing to unlock this or send her the text or something? (fine if not, bt i thought i would signal-boost).

[kelkyag]

I locked it because I didn't want to create a scene in public, and because it's not terribly articulate. It looks like there's already plenty of griping going around, and I have plenty of unlocked entries that aren't particularly articulate, so, sure ... unlocked.

[lillibet]

I'm running out the door, so don't have time to read the many thoughtful comments here--but I will!

In the meantime (and this may be redundant because of my lack of time), Cee has asked for feedback on the text here and I've made my own post about the racial aspects, in particular, here. That post triggered a lot of interesting discussion.

[kelkyag]

I've been following the comments on your post -- thank you! -- and Cee is aware of this one.

[ceelove]

Hi! There's a lot in this thread to respond to, so I am going to kind of cherry-pick. Thank you for taking the time to bring up issues that bothered you, and then for unlocking the entry.

The first thing Les does as a bandit after the training montage in which she has nominally learned all sorts of combat skills is pretend to be a damsel in distress to bait an unwary traveler.

This is very compressed from the movie script. In that, she fumbles a lot, but ends up taking advantage of the confusion of the aristocrat by making off with two horses. I had not considered how it would come across, to have her playing damsel-in-distress; I was thinking of it as an extension of her glee at deceiving Camembert with her "feminine wiles" - utilizing instead of being entrapped by sexism. I'd like to think it's more balanced and nuanced in the full version (which, by the way, you're welcome to read at http://www.lightsuit.org/Never After2.pdf).
After two scenes in which Les

[kelkyag]

I had not considered how it would come across, to have her playing damsel-in-distress; I was thinking of it as an extension of her glee at deceiving Camembert with her "feminine wiles" - utilizing instead of being entrapped by sexism.

I wasn't fond of her using "feminine wiles" against Camembert, either, but that at least felt desperate, clumsy, and forced by circumstances rather than planned. That sort of manipulation is a learned skill, but she's presented as having spent her childhood dodging lessons in traditional feminine skills (be those embroidery or seduction) in favor of climbing trees and playing at swordsmanship with Hans. That she has those skills or is willing to use them to me undercuts her character as a tomboy and forwards the notion that manipulation of that sort is inherent in being female rather than learned skill used by the sex with less overt power.

Also, she just acquired the combat training she's been wanting her whole life. Why is she not itching to put that to use?

I'd like to think it's more balanced

[kelkyag]

(continued)

I had intended it as a hero's journey: Les goes out, has adventures that mature her, and returns home with new skills and knowledge. I was trying for "nascent democracy", where the peasants decide for themselves that they want Les to continue to lead and guide them. She has done so thus far, giving her time and money to their betterment and fighting on their behalf, completely unlike the royals whom she has renounced.She does return home with new skills and knowledge, but none that particularly qualify her to rule anything, nor does she seem suited by temperment to rule -- too much sitting still talking, not enough adventuring. (As is mentioned above, how she and Somnia are going to arrange a life that works for both of them is an interesting problem

[ceelove]

I like the idea of combining people's skills here, thank you. And yes, this could help with the problem of Somnia not having enough characteristics that people feel make her admirable/a match for Les/something other than a pretty-princess...

The intended message was that Les had matured beyond "rejecting men and a constraining life" into "embracing love and responsibility". I'll aim towards more of "sovereign at a stroke/content to share what's now the lot of common folk." Shared responsibility, each knowing and valuing their own gifts.

[scribble scribble scribble]

Thanks for the commentary. It's apparent to me now that I was doing some lazy thinking, mostly about how to spoof and subvert fairytale tropes, without letting some of the character tropes become more of the real people they can be.