but I did feel some of what you felt, I think when I went to Baltimore for the first time and saw the Waterfront and the Broadway Pier shut down, boarded up, and empty, no longer the vibrant, active places they were when Homicide was filming.
Yes, exactly! It's a weird feeling ... it is a sort of cognitive dissonance; seeing that makes you feel like it's over, but in your head it's never over; when you're not there looking at it, it's easy for the Pier to be thriving and vibrant in your head, but when you see that it isn't, you're made to acknowledge that it is just in your head. If that makes any sort of sense - gah, talk about convoluted
( ... )
I can completely empathise with this. I'm new to fandom but watched Pros the first time around when I was a kid and adored it then. Going back and rewatching it now is a mixture of sadness and joy for me. They were so young, I was so young. In some ways, Britain was young, or felt so to me at the time. Things have changed enormously since then and it will never be that way again. Like you said, no rewind button, cars on a cable and no jumping tracks. Milk bottles will never be that shape again :-D
Vis a vis the actors, discovering Lew Collins was 60 nearly made my heart give out, cos he'll always be young to me. MS not so much, in all honesty, as he does pop up on British telly regularly and so I feel that he's aged with me. Or I with him. But he's not Doyle. Ray Doyle and Bodie are two very specific people who will remain forever youthful and handsome in my head - or grey and wrinkled in fanfic. LOL
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you're not alone, really.
They were so young, I was so young. In some ways, Britain was young, or felt so to me at the time. Things have changed enormously since then and it will never be that way again. Like you said, no rewind button, cars on a cable and no jumping tracks. Milk bottles will never be that shape again :-D
Yes, oh, that's it, exactly ... Unlike you, I didn't grow up with these particular guys, but the feeling you describe is the same: the knowledge that it will never be that way again.
Or I with him. But he's not Doyle. Ray Doyle and Bodie are two very specific people who will remain forever youthful and handsome in my head - or grey and wrinkled in fanfic.
Again, you've said exactly what I was trying to. The problem I had was that suddenly seeing MS, there, in the flesh, from 30 feet away, for some reason was like a punch in the gut, slamming me with the never never again kind of feeling, as I compared the MS I see all the time - the young, brash, sexy Doyle MS - with who he is now. Not that who he is now is bad, not at all - just
( ... )
You don't say how old you are, so I'm assuming fairly young. Since MS and LC are only eight years older than I am, I guess their getting older doesn't bother me so much because I've gotten older. Would I have loved to meet them when I was twenty-seven and they were thirty-five? You bet. But I'd like to meet them now, too. The shows I've seen them in recently, they're in make-up, I'm sure. Yet, they both seem to have aged well. No, not like Paul Newman at sixty but not bad. Besides, it's not like I look the same as I did then, either, lol. And as it was so apply put in a CSI episode, none of us gets out alive. There's getting older and there's dead.
I am more a Bodie and Doyle fan, as opposed to LC and MS, too; the characters are who I know. Yet talking with the men who "filled them out" has its appeal.
But the thing maybe I didn't make clear is that I'm not saying MS looks bad or isn't sexy or that being old or getting older are bad things. I personally like getting older, myself; I'm far happier than I was when I was younger. The thought of turning 40 next year is tough because it reminds me of the passage of time, how fast time passes, how there is no going back (not that I'd necessarily want to, but still), etc., but not because I dread being older or think being older is bad (except I could do without the increasingly bad back!!)
No, what bothered me about the fact that MS is "old" wasn't that he as himself is therefore no longer sexy (I haven't really thought much about that, but to the extent I have, I agree with you - he's aged well), but that it threatens my view of Doyle as never aging, forever young and brash and sexy, because I had such a hard time, seeing him on the stage, not conflating the two
( ... )
But the thing maybe I didn't make clear is that I'm not saying MS looks bad or isn't sexy or that being old or getting older are bad things. I personally like getting older, myself; I'm far happier than I was when I was younger.
No, what bothered me about the fact that MS is "old" wasn't that he as himself is therefore no longer sexy (I haven't really thought much about that, but to the extent I have, I agree with you - he's aged well), but that it threatens my view of Doyle as never aging, forever young and brash and sexy, because I had such a hard time, seeing him on the stage, not conflating the two.Oh, okay, that makes sense. But I suppose even in that, I don't see Doyle as staying forever young. I see him growing old with Bodie. :-) "Older Lads" stories are kind of sweet, as long as they've been together all that time. Speaking of which, do you like the stories that cross a much older Bodie with, say, Cade? I don't care for them at all, not
( ... )
Oh, I don't mind D growing old with Bodie, not at all ... it's not that the Doyle in my head never ages, it's that ageing for him is - well, it's a reversible process *g*. He's not a car on a cable; for us, there's nowhere to go other than ... forwards; "we can't return, we can only look behind from where we came" (I think that's Joni Mitchell, if I recall correctly). But Doyle can be old and gray in one story and then young and brash and sexy again in the next; that youth is never lost forever. He can always be exactly what I want him to be at any given moment, old, young, or even dead, but there are no rules, there's nothing linear about it
( ... )
I'm very much a charfan and not an actorfan; in fact one reaction I had to a gorgeous set of cheesecake pics of the Firefly actors was "Waaah! These are pictures of Sean Maher! I want more pictures of Simon!". Your post struck some chords because of the theme of "Serenity the Movie," which is about Belief (and also because of the general upsettitude of various fans about things in the flick).
I agree with gilda_elise: I mean, *I'm* really old and I still think I'm neat-o and sexy. But Martin Shaw never *was* Doyle, for better or for worse; he might or might not have been tough or sneaky or snarky or courageous or anything else you love about Doyle.
But Martin Shaw never *was* Doyle, for better or for worse; he might or might not have been tough or sneaky or snarky or courageous or anything else you love about Doyle.
Oh, and this is precisely the point! Yes! Seeing him in the flesh made it difficult for me to remember this - we went back to the hotel and watched the ep, and I couldn't stop myself from seeing the current MS superimposed over Doyle, from thinking that the person I was watching was gone forever.... The effect didn't last. But it did throw me for a loop; it did take me a little while to reorient myself, to remind myself that MS isn't Doyle, never was, and that the Doyle I love, unlike MS, isn't bound by the linear constraints of time. (But as I said in response to one of these comments, it's not that I'm bothered by ageing; I wasn't intending to imply that MS couldn't be sexy because he's "old." It's just that his ageing, seeing it close up, threatened my view of Doyle as ageless. If that makes sense
( ... )
Forever Wilt Thou Love and He Be FairexecutrixOctober 13 2005, 01:23:43 UTC
I had a similar cognitive disconnect when I was wibbling about Avon and someone pointed out that Paul Darrow was, after all, a fair age, and I said that Avon was 40-ish when he died at Gauda Prime* and never got any older.
In a way, Bodie and Doyle are frozen--they are and always will be between 31 and 35, or whatever age they were when their adventures were filmed. But in another way, fanfic makes all characters fluid--i.e., it's not only possible to write Crimean War! Bodie/Doyle but to write about six different flavors of Bodie-in-primary-school.
*Yeah, I've fanwanked it in various ways, but, well, they really all DID die, for values of "really" for fictional characters
I absolutely loathe Martin Shaw. Right down to the bones of him. I think he's a terrible actor and a very egotistical person and I have no wish to know him or see his roles past that of Doyle.
LOL! I have no opinion on the issue whether he is in fact egotistical, and I don't even want to know enough about him to know whether he's egotistical or not, or a good actor or not ... I have no wish to know anything about him, really, and like you, I don't really want to see him in anything else. I'm glad you said this; no one has, and I understand why in all the excitement, but I've known from the start that I was doing this trip to be with my friends (and it was surely worth it for that!) and not because I care about seeing MS; I'm glad I'm not alone in not being interested in him past Doyle.
And ... to reassure you, I don't think I was quite clear about something. The thing is, in general I don't hold much stock in how MS looks or acts. I don't think about him at all. In general I'm very successful at not linking MS and Doyle, and I
( ... )
That's why it disturbed and unsettled me - because it threatened my ability to keep MS and Doyle well and truly separate, while I was watching the play and immediately thereafter.
Now this is very interesting to me, because while I didn't feel this way at all about the *actors* I went to London to see (Martin Shaw and John Castle), I did feel this way about all the *people* I went to meet... I suddenly feel like a stranger in my own home and am having trouble adjusting to my new world. This is very bizarre and I'm going to have to ruminate on that one for a few days...
I did feel this way about all the *people* I went to meet... I suddenly feel like a stranger in my own home ...Do you mean the fellow fans? Do you mean you feel like a stranger in fandom? I'd be interested to hear more about this
( ... )
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Yes, exactly! It's a weird feeling ... it is a sort of cognitive dissonance; seeing that makes you feel like it's over, but in your head it's never over; when you're not there looking at it, it's easy for the Pier to be thriving and vibrant in your head, but when you see that it isn't, you're made to acknowledge that it is just in your head. If that makes any sort of sense - gah, talk about convoluted ( ... )
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Vis a vis the actors, discovering Lew Collins was 60 nearly made my heart give out, cos he'll always be young to me. MS not so much, in all honesty, as he does pop up on British telly regularly and so I feel that he's aged with me. Or I with him. But he's not Doyle. Ray Doyle and Bodie are two very specific people who will remain forever youthful and handsome in my head - or grey and wrinkled in fanfic. LOL
I guess what I'm trying to say is, you're not alone, really.
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Yes, oh, that's it, exactly ... Unlike you, I didn't grow up with these particular guys, but the feeling you describe is the same: the knowledge that it will never be that way again.
Or I with him. But he's not Doyle. Ray Doyle and Bodie are two very specific people who will remain forever youthful and handsome in my head - or grey and wrinkled in fanfic.
Again, you've said exactly what I was trying to. The problem I had was that suddenly seeing MS, there, in the flesh, from 30 feet away, for some reason was like a punch in the gut, slamming me with the never never again kind of feeling, as I compared the MS I see all the time - the young, brash, sexy Doyle MS - with who he is now. Not that who he is now is bad, not at all - just ( ... )
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I am more a Bodie and Doyle fan, as opposed to LC and MS, too; the characters are who I know. Yet talking with the men who "filled them out" has its appeal.
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But the thing maybe I didn't make clear is that I'm not saying MS looks bad or isn't sexy or that being old or getting older are bad things. I personally like getting older, myself; I'm far happier than I was when I was younger. The thought of turning 40 next year is tough because it reminds me of the passage of time, how fast time passes, how there is no going back (not that I'd necessarily want to, but still), etc., but not because I dread being older or think being older is bad (except I could do without the increasingly bad back!!)
No, what bothered me about the fact that MS is "old" wasn't that he as himself is therefore no longer sexy (I haven't really thought much about that, but to the extent I have, I agree with you - he's aged well), but that it threatens my view of Doyle as never aging, forever young and brash and sexy, because I had such a hard time, seeing him on the stage, not conflating the two ( ... )
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Oh, shut up. ;-) Yes, that is fairly young.
But the thing maybe I didn't make clear is that I'm not saying MS looks bad or isn't sexy or that being old or getting older are bad things. I personally like getting older, myself; I'm far happier than I was when I was younger.
No, what bothered me about the fact that MS is "old" wasn't that he as himself is therefore no longer sexy (I haven't really thought much about that, but to the extent I have, I agree with you - he's aged well), but that it threatens my view of Doyle as never aging, forever young and brash and sexy, because I had such a hard time, seeing him on the stage, not conflating the two.Oh, okay, that makes sense. But I suppose even in that, I don't see Doyle as staying forever young. I see him growing old with Bodie. :-) "Older Lads" stories are kind of sweet, as long as they've been together all that time. Speaking of which, do you like the stories that cross a much older Bodie with, say, Cade? I don't care for them at all, not ( ... )
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I agree with gilda_elise: I mean, *I'm* really old and I still think I'm neat-o and sexy. But Martin Shaw never *was* Doyle, for better or for worse; he might or might not have been tough or sneaky or snarky or courageous or anything else you love about Doyle.
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Oh, and this is precisely the point! Yes! Seeing him in the flesh made it difficult for me to remember this - we went back to the hotel and watched the ep, and I couldn't stop myself from seeing the current MS superimposed over Doyle, from thinking that the person I was watching was gone forever.... The effect didn't last. But it did throw me for a loop; it did take me a little while to reorient myself, to remind myself that MS isn't Doyle, never was, and that the Doyle I love, unlike MS, isn't bound by the linear constraints of time. (But as I said in response to one of these comments, it's not that I'm bothered by ageing; I wasn't intending to imply that MS couldn't be sexy because he's "old." It's just that his ageing, seeing it close up, threatened my view of Doyle as ageless. If that makes sense ( ... )
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In a way, Bodie and Doyle are frozen--they are and always will be between 31 and 35, or whatever age they were when their adventures were filmed. But in another way, fanfic makes all characters fluid--i.e., it's not only possible to write Crimean War! Bodie/Doyle but to write about six different flavors of Bodie-in-primary-school.
*Yeah, I've fanwanked it in various ways, but, well, they really all DID die, for values of "really" for fictional characters
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LOL! I have no opinion on the issue whether he is in fact egotistical, and I don't even want to know enough about him to know whether he's egotistical or not, or a good actor or not ... I have no wish to know anything about him, really, and like you, I don't really want to see him in anything else. I'm glad you said this; no one has, and I understand why in all the excitement, but I've known from the start that I was doing this trip to be with my friends (and it was surely worth it for that!) and not because I care about seeing MS; I'm glad I'm not alone in not being interested in him past Doyle.
And ... to reassure you, I don't think I was quite clear about something. The thing is, in general I don't hold much stock in how MS looks or acts. I don't think about him at all. In general I'm very successful at not linking MS and Doyle, and I ( ... )
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Now this is very interesting to me, because while I didn't feel this way at all about the *actors* I went to London to see (Martin Shaw and John Castle), I did feel this way about all the *people* I went to meet... I suddenly feel like a stranger in my own home and am having trouble adjusting to my new world. This is very bizarre and I'm going to have to ruminate on that one for a few days...
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