Putting Down the Occupier Protests

[jordan179]

this grew from a comment I made in http://melvin-udall.livejournal.com/1327177.html?view=8037193#t8037193

I find amusing and incomprehensible that notion that throwing bottles and rocks at police does not constitute "violence." I've actually been

Comments

[ext_531464]

If that's treason, then what is loyalty to a corrupt and authoritarian government?

[seawasp]

It's similar to the situation of a military person given orders he views as unlawful. The military man may choose to disobey the orders, but will be held to account for his actions, and if he turns out to be judged in the wrong, will pay a very stiff penalty for it.

Similarly, a group of people who are acting against their current government may very well BE committing treason. Unless and until they lead a revolution, at which point they're heroes of the hour and the former government are war criminals.

[jordan179]

I would point out that you are speaking pragmatically. For once, Yama has made a valid point, and he is speaking morally.

The key test here, which Yama adduces to but not does not correctly apply, is the nature of the regime imposing the order; and the key qualifier, which Yama has not grasped, is the nature of the revolution being proposed.

If dissenters are faced with a regime whose leaders are in power against the will of its people and which rules with respect to Natural Law and under which there is no legitimate way for the will of the people to be expressed, THEN violent rebellion is morally justified. The conditional is vital: if the regime is in fact supported by the will of its people or it rules with respect to Natural Law or there is a legitimate way for the will of the people to be expressed, then violent rebellion is immoral and those supporting it are traitors to their own society.

[marycatelli]

Do you mean "which rules without respect to Natural Law"?

[belvarius]

And before someone says it: No. The right to "peaceably and lawfully assemble" does not give that "assembly" the right to break other laws. Never has, never will

Agreed, indeed when the protestors are assaulting officers and violating a plethora of laws it's time to bring such assemblies to an end. You make a good point about the importance of maintaining civil order against large mobs too.

[rhjunior]

Note the key words PEACEFULLY AND LAWFULLY.

[marycatelli]

Throwing rocks has been used as a method of execution.

All those who throw rocks should therefore be prosecuted for attempted murder.

[ext_531464]

I daresay you're part of the problem.

[gothelittle]

Yup, she's one of the people standing in the way of your desire to see the United States torn down in its entirety and converted into one of those fascist or socialist regimes you like so much, complete with mass starvation and plenty of state-sanctioned murders.

I'm another.

I think you'll find she and I are not alone.

Too bad for you.

[ext_531464]

Yeah, let's trump up all their charges. Great idea! Just think of all the people they could get on death row.

[marycatelli]

BTW, did you hear that some Tea Party organizers are talking of suing Atlanta? Apparently the Occupy Atlanta crew got things they were denied.

[wombat_socho]

Also true of the Richmond group. They're more than a little pissed at having had to fork out money for permits, porta-potties and park rental while the filthy hippies of #OWS/Richmond paid nothing and made no more arrangement for sanitation than their NYC brethren.

[cutelildrow]

I hope they win.

Heard about the DC OWS planning to secede from the US?

[jordan179]

Heh ... to which the very-proper response is "Them and what army?"

(though, admittedly, we could give them some islands somewhere and let them have their own nation, on the promise that they renounce their US citizenship and never ever try to come back again ... it would be a net gain for our country!)

[gothelittle]

The New York Post reports that policemen advocacy groups in NYC are planning to sue OWS protesters for the over 20 injured officers so far, as a result of this "peaceful" protest.

[galadrion]

Good! This is a case for which I would support severe punitive damages... on the behalf of each officer, against each of the protesters.