A few more finale remarks.

[janissa11]

Comments

[percysowner]

I think Sam's powers have always been passive. Even the season one moving of the furniture seemed to be more of a "let me out" rather than "move the desk". I mean Sam didn't know how he was locked in, just that he was locked in and needed to get out. And Sam seemed to be as surprised as Lilith that she didn't kill him. I don't think he thought I'll stop her, he just couldn't be touched

[jebbypal]

Well, they could always handwave (a la Dead like me) and say that Dean has another face but those that know the true him can see him. Or just show the other face in reflective surfaces but still keep Jensen. *shrugs*

[janissa11]

I guess I'm just thinking about Dean down the line, brought back and then approaching the pearly gates at a muuuuuuch later date. And St. Peter going, "Dude, you chose the deal and as much as I hate to admit it, the underworld honored their part." (Then, really I'd like to hear, "But balanced against all the battles you fought for the good -- the big guy's decided not to hold that demon thing against you. Welcome home

[percysowner]

I think that canon seems to default to once the deal is lifted, that's it. After that you get what is coming to you based on your own actions. Demons are the taunting type, and the CRD never told Dean, "Okay, I don't take him now, but guess what whenever he dies his soul is ours because that's the rules" and I think she would have if that was the case. In fact, I think she would have told Sam the same thing in Bedtime Stories, if only in an attempt to save his life. "Even if you kill me and the contract holder Dean you only postpone the inevitable" So, I think that if they break Dean out, then making the deal becomes only one of the factors that he gets judged on.

[jebbypal]

My main problem with the entire season has been the Faustian bargain. W/ John, the deal didn't give time for reneging or anything, so yes, he died and went to hell

Staying in Hell

[spacefarer]

It's an interesting question, but I don't think in the SPN universe that Dean is condemned to be in Hell forever (or to go back, if he gets out). John did not--he moved on--and if it is merely the act of making a deal that condemns you forever, he should not have, even with Azazel's death. I don't think, as this universe is set up, making a deal to save someone else, is considered an unforgiveable sin, especially for someone who lived his live selflessly in the service of saving others (without getting into a major religious discussion, I don't think it should in the real world, either. It makes God a right royal bastard

[destina]

This is a fascinating post. I don't really have much to add to the discussion just yet, but...I love the thinky thoughts it's generating. (Not so fond of the show-bashing I'm seeing, tho. But that's a topic for another time.)

[janissa11]

Not so fond of the show-bashing I'm seeing, tho. But that's a topic for another time.

If you want to, feel free here. It was in part a reaction to some negative commentary I've seen that I tried to step back a little and examine the ep. Now I'm just one person with my own perspective, but honestly, I've been more than a little dismayed at the negativity. For me this ep really, REALLY WORKED. I have quibbles here and there, that's par for the course, but overall I was shattered. I even made a COMM for post-ep stress. *laughing*

Certainly EVERYONE is welcome to their own opinion, and I'm not trying to change any of that. Just add my own two cents. *shrug*

[muffaletta]

As much as it broke my heart to even consider, I had wondered if Dean would have to go through with the deal to its agreed end. Otherwise, it would have presented quite a quandry: if the CRD kept her word and brought Sam back, what would it say about Dean if he backed out of his part? After all, he agreed to the terms, knowing it would mean eternity in Hell. It would make sense that Dean would have second thoughts. But I really don't see how else it could have played out in order to maintain Dean's integrity and hero status.

But I agree that there's nothing that says he has to stay in Hell either. The CRD didn't specify that, probably figuring that it would be a moot point. So now maybe Sam can finally figure out how to use his abilities to get Dean out.

All that being said, it was incredibly terrible to watch that ending. I hope Kripke has pity on both the boys and the audience-I would really hate for the show to go any darker. Some angst is okay but if this show gets any more depressing, I'll end up on Prozac!