I don't think this is hate-worthy at all, but why do you have to be so goshdarned defensive about it? (kidding, kidding)
I hope (beyond all hope) that Sam burns himself out saving Dean and loses his powers entirely, or at the very least goes back to the stupid useless ones he had in S1. Because anything less entirely changes the arc of the show, like you said. Sam becomes Super, and Dean becomes utterly useless. However, I actually trust Kripke not to do that, because he's pretty enamored with his current aesthetic.
I'm not without the Kripke-trust. I haven't liked everything the show has done, but I've believed a whole lot of it. I HOPE this works out in -- a good way. I do. And I believe it CAN.
Just...man, a whoooole lotta things popped into my head the second I read this spoiler. ::sighs::
You know what? Super!Sam? Not the show I signed for. I think we talked about this before, and honestly, I agree with everything you said. I was actually thinking about this today - before I read the spoilers - and I was thinking that no matter how much I love Supernatural, this is not what I expected to see/hoped to see in it.
And the latest Kripke interview where he pretty much said that they built the show around this character Sam who the audience were supposed to relate to? Didn't sit well with me. And I'm sorry Kripke but Sam is not the one I relate to at all. This makes me real sad.
I like Sam, and I would never wish him to be less than he can/should be. I only feel -- well, as I said.
And dude, maybe Kripke and his stable of (absent) writers have a master plan for Dean, TOO. They're just not saying what it is. Sam's the obvious; Dean's the not-obvious.
And that would ROCK, because -- yeah, equal footing in their own distinct ways.
A handful of friends do "watch and post" of the dvds, now and then. We'd recently done a marathon of selected eps from all three seasons, beginning with the pilot. It was observed that "It's obvious now that this was envisioned as The Sam Show, he was the central character, and Dean was the funny, badass sidekick."
But for all Kripke has said that Sam is Luke Skywalker, the audience avatar, the central figure whose odyssey we're following, Jensen has inspired the writers to bring Dean into partnership. They're a team, not a hero and sidekick. Kripke's had his ideas about the show generally challenged, changed, deepened, and partially redirected since there's been input from Bob Singer, the other writers, and the actors. I really don't think he would marginalize or trivialize Dean's existence or experience to bolster Sam. Not now, even if that had been his first intention.
In the account I read, there was another spoiler regarding Dean, which makes me a bit more sanguine about trivializing his part in the saga. YSpoilersMV.
In the account I read, there was another spoiler regarding Dean, which makes me a bit more sanguine about trivializing his part in the saga. YSpoilersMV.
What was it? Could you tell me either here or in my lj or by email at stony.angel at gmail.com? Thank you.
OOH. MEATY. \o/lemmealoneJanuary 20 2008, 00:29:09 UTC
Hrm. I remember having similar reservations back when Sam first started with the powers having. And to be honest, this development has been pretty broadcasted from the beginning of season 3, with Ruby's hints and temptations and Dean's conversations with Casey in Sin City and such. And when I read this spoiler I really didn't look past the initial glee of big scary Sam calling down hellfire and brimstone for his brother. Because man, I like that picture. *g*
In the long term, though - it hadn't even ocurred to me that the powers would stick around after, because I (geekgeekgeek) have read a lot of comics, and I always remember that one big Gambit storyline in X Men where he got all the great big omega powers he had in the beginning and there was a huge, world-saving dramatic gesture... which burned out all the big scary powers and he went back to being pretty much the same old Gambit he'd always been. So I guess that colours my perceptions a little.
There's also the knowledge that Sam's powers were unreliable in season 1 and that
( ... )
Re: OOH. MEATY. \o/janissa11January 20 2008, 00:51:09 UTC
Because man, I like that picture.
I do, too -- but with reservations, you know? I have NO problem with Sam taking names -- I LOVE that. But I don't want it if he has to be evil to do it (which I want to believe he won't, but see below), and/or if Dean has to turn into someone who depends on THAT rather than himself to accomplish it. I think how passive Dean has been was a risky choice story-wise from the get-go, and I hope like hell (as it were) that Dean...amps up, too.
It sounds like sacrilege to say it, but I do wonder if they're setting up a season of brother vs brother.It's not sacrilege to me -- in painful fact, I think it might be the only way to redeem Dean -- BY fighting Sam with those Phenomenal Cosmic Powaas, AS a regular-Joe human, AS someone who might even stand to be thankful to those powers on a personal level. I mean, it would be dark and complex to have Dean saved by Sam's assumption, and then say, "But you should have let me die, because now we're on opposite sides of the table." (Well, roughly. *g
( ... )
Re: OOH. MEATY. \o/lemmealoneJanuary 20 2008, 00:56:48 UTC
I think how passive Dean has been was a risky choice story-wise from the get-go, and I hope like hell (as it were) that Dean...amps up, too.
Uh, haha... how spoiled are you at this point? Because I think I can give you an answer for that but I don't want to spoil you more than you're willing.
And I really can see them pitting the boys against one another at some point, so having this be the catalyst is a big possibility. *g*
Wordy McWorderson. No arguments at all. I admit I never related to Sam as well as I did Dean, but I think most people, even the most rabid Sam fans, at least like Dean and want to see him be something other than a good soldier and the Face of Emo. You only have two main characters, Kripke. It's not impossible to do something of equal weight, complexity, and interest with both. Get on that.
See lemmealone's (whoops, LOL) comments above -- there's a GOOD theory there, a possibility that would really redeem this storyline. Even IF Dean has to wind up being saved by Sam's powers. ::thinky face::
I want Dean to come into his own as the badass King of the Hunters I know he can be. He already has Bobby and Ellen at his back, and he's John Winchester's son and apparent heir. So damn it, I want Dean to step up and become a Big Name Face in the community. I want other hunters to be willing to follow him, not call him a screw-up. I want him to embrace his life and what he is - like he used to.
That's what I've ALWAYS wanted, ever since Sam was revealed as the Chosen One. But it's never happened; Sam's had all these changes and Dean really hasn't, except to be broken down over and over again. Now I want him to live up to that ready, determined little grin he had at the end of the last finale.
I've been thinking of something like this only not exactly this. I mean, the plot that's been living in my brain features the war and two groups fighting the demons - the gifted ones and the 'normal' ones. Although Sam is the only survivor of his group of psychic kids, there are probably others out there - youngers (remember baby Rose?) and olders. Since Sam is the most powerful, he becomes their leaders, and they think they're entitled to get the most dangerous battles since they have powers. On the other side there were the hunters who are fighting the same fight but are not happy with the psychic's superior attitude.
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I hope (beyond all hope) that Sam burns himself out saving Dean and loses his powers entirely, or at the very least goes back to the stupid useless ones he had in S1. Because anything less entirely changes the arc of the show, like you said. Sam becomes Super, and Dean becomes utterly useless. However, I actually trust Kripke not to do that, because he's pretty enamored with his current aesthetic.
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I'm not without the Kripke-trust. I haven't liked everything the show has done, but I've believed a whole lot of it. I HOPE this works out in -- a good way. I do. And I believe it CAN.
Just...man, a whoooole lotta things popped into my head the second I read this spoiler. ::sighs::
Reply
I think we talked about this before, and honestly, I agree with everything you said. I was actually thinking about this today - before I read the spoilers - and I was thinking that no matter how much I love Supernatural, this is not what I expected to see/hoped to see in it.
And the latest Kripke interview where he pretty much said that they built the show around this character Sam who the audience were supposed to relate to? Didn't sit well with me. And I'm sorry Kripke but Sam is not the one I relate to at all.
This makes me real sad.
Reply
And dude, maybe Kripke and his stable of (absent) writers have a master plan for Dean, TOO. They're just not saying what it is. Sam's the obvious; Dean's the not-obvious.
And that would ROCK, because -- yeah, equal footing in their own distinct ways.
We'll see. Right now-- kinda sad, too.
Reply
But for all Kripke has said that Sam is Luke Skywalker, the audience avatar, the central figure whose odyssey we're following, Jensen has inspired the writers to bring Dean into partnership. They're a team, not a hero and sidekick. Kripke's had his ideas about the show generally challenged, changed, deepened, and partially redirected since there's been input from Bob Singer, the other writers, and the actors. I really don't think he would marginalize or trivialize Dean's existence or experience to bolster Sam. Not now, even if that had been his first intention.
In the account I read, there was another spoiler regarding Dean, which makes me a bit more sanguine about trivializing his part in the saga. YSpoilersMV.
Reply
What was it? Could you tell me either here or in my lj or by email at stony.angel at gmail.com? Thank you.
Reply
In the long term, though - it hadn't even ocurred to me that the powers would stick around after, because I (geekgeekgeek) have read a lot of comics, and I always remember that one big Gambit storyline in X Men where he got all the great big omega powers he had in the beginning and there was a huge, world-saving dramatic gesture... which burned out all the big scary powers and he went back to being pretty much the same old Gambit he'd always been. So I guess that colours my perceptions a little.
There's also the knowledge that Sam's powers were unreliable in season 1 and that ( ... )
Reply
I do, too -- but with reservations, you know? I have NO problem with Sam taking names -- I LOVE that. But I don't want it if he has to be evil to do it (which I want to believe he won't, but see below), and/or if Dean has to turn into someone who depends on THAT rather than himself to accomplish it. I think how passive Dean has been was a risky choice story-wise from the get-go, and I hope like hell (as it were) that Dean...amps up, too.
It sounds like sacrilege to say it, but I do wonder if they're setting up a season of brother vs brother.It's not sacrilege to me -- in painful fact, I think it might be the only way to redeem Dean -- BY fighting Sam with those Phenomenal Cosmic Powaas, AS a regular-Joe human, AS someone who might even stand to be thankful to those powers on a personal level. I mean, it would be dark and complex to have Dean saved by Sam's assumption, and then say, "But you should have let me die, because now we're on opposite sides of the table." (Well, roughly. *g ( ... )
Reply
Uh, haha... how spoiled are you at this point? Because I think I can give you an answer for that but I don't want to spoil you more than you're willing.
And I really can see them pitting the boys against one another at some point, so having this be the catalyst is a big possibility. *g*
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That's what I've ALWAYS wanted, ever since Sam was revealed as the Chosen One. But it's never happened; Sam's had all these changes and Dean really hasn't, except to be broken down over and over again. Now I want him to live up to that ready, determined little grin he had at the end of the last finale.
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If that doesn't happen? After I recover from my aneurysm WE SHALL WRITE IT. Deal?
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King-of-the-hunters!Dean vs. King-of-the-demons!Sam. Round one FIGHT!
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On the other side there were the hunters who are fighting the same fight but are not happy with the psychic's superior attitude.
My mind is a very weird place.
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