Now some further thoughts.

[janissa11]

These are theories, many of them, some based on spoilerettes for upcoming eps, so I'll both lj-cut AND say that if you don't want inklings of what is yet in store for us -- though I could be wrong on all counts -- avoid, please.

Comments

[andromakhe001]

Thinking about point 2, above, it adds another layer to John's sacrifice. A really interesting layer.What? What do you think it means in terms of a layer it adds to John's sacrifice

[janissa11]

The layer is only that yet again, it was not DEAN'S choice to live, but someone else's. First Sam's, then John's. Each of them pulled Dean from a time he should have died. Dean didn't want to go, no doubt, but he knew both times that it WAS his time (more the first than the second, but never mind).

The only reason I'm not freaking out badly about the whole idea that Dean has to watch out for Sam is -- hmm, going to be difficult to explain. I don't think it's just to be there FOR Sam. To use, to lean on, all that. If it goes this direction, I think it is more about who Dean is. I will think on it and see if I can articulate it better after a little pondering. It should bother me, and doesn't, and I'm absolutely unable to say why that's so, except I see something in point #2 that connects here. Sorry to be vague; it's still percolating.

[andromakhe001]

I know I just have a problem with the whole "who Dean is" thing too. Of course it's about who Dean is, who Dean is to Sam. It still means he's just being there for Sam. It's for what he is to Sam. He's already been 'the mom', I'd rather he not be "the wife" too.

I'm not interested in "Dean saving Sam". It's sad to say but such a storyline actually makes not care what happens to Sam just because it annoys me so much. I don't think that's a very interesting 'heroic' storyline as things go. For either of them actually.

And it kind of makes John an ass in death all over again. :) So John saves Dean because he'll be of more use to save Sam than John would? John's just using Dean, again, ultimately. Like I've before I have a real problem that what we've been presented with under alot of these scenarios is a storyline where Dean never thought he was the important one and lo and behold look at that, he's not.

[cereta]

*Flaily*

See, here's where I'm kind of back to my D&D-fantasy-novel-Conan parallel, which I can never quite articulate. There a long tradition of the warrior escorting someone special (okay, usually a princess, but still) somewhere special (a temple or something) to do something special (retrieve something, etc). But, even though it's the escortee who is special and predestined and etc, it's the warrior who does. The escortee is special for some reason that does not involve choice, but fate, whereas the warrior is special through his choices.

Now, that's not to denigrate Sam in any way. A princess he's not, and I suspect his role will be to learn to use whatever fate has given him actively rather than passively. But to the extent that Dean's job is to look out for Sam, that doesn't make him any less a protagonist than Sam, just a different kind.

[cathexys]

Oh, I really like your third point, b/c at that point the paternal sacrifice is for *both* sons rather thn just for Dean...

Of course, given John's 'I was always weak when I should have been the one who's strong,' I'm now wondering whether leaving Dean to worry about whatever's gonna go on with Sam is ultimately again giving his burden to Dean, making Dean do what John should have done??? [yes, i'm just a tiny bit partial...*g*]

[janissa11]

I don't know. I like to think that maybe all of this DT material showed John that Dean was indispensible in a way that John himself was not. I mean, I'm all down with it being a demonstration of real and honest fatherly love, too, but I think that John may have perceived that calculating potential losses, of their little military team he himself was the expendable one, moreso than Dean (or Sam

[leelust]

You're so right about that. I think it's very important that first Sam saved Dean's life when found healer then John sacrifice himself to bring his son dack as if apologized to all that weight he did put on Dean's shoulders. Dean saved Sam's life not once and now I really believe that he oblige himself to saved their father's life too. All that DT's line about marching to hell have very deep meaning now. And I so hope that they reveal to us more about Dean. and I mean More!

what else?

[anonymous]

Theory One. Totally agree. Theory Two--yeah, no way is it a rehash, any more than Sam having another "vision" would be a rehash. It's building, and the fact that they acknowledge the previous incident, don't ignore it, but keep the universe cohesive adds to that

Re: what else?

[anonymous]

Okay, I lied. Just a few more thoughts. (As long as you don't mind me bringing up a ton of spoilers

[1trackmind]

Dean's failure to die when his time was up -- twice -- will come back to haunt him, and therefore us, possibly before the season is up.

Yeah, that's what I'm guessing.

[dolimir_k]

Perfect guess (although I don't know for sure) about what John whispered to Dean. He has to give Dean the information to save Sam as he's doing this to save Dean, leaving no one else to save Sam. Wow!