Spike v Angel

[infinitewhale]

This debate still goes on, which is the "better" vampire. It's a thing of passion for fans even now. Obviously there are the subjective reasons. We like one more than the other and look for reasons to prove our opinion. Thing is, the factors pointed to are not terribly well-constructed across both shows or even in a single season

Comments

[shapinglight]

Yes, I think it probably is. If it all made sense, instead of being an incoherent, make-it-up-as-you-go-along mess, there would be nothing to argue about. ;)

I suppose you could argue that the type of humanity exhibited by Spike and Dru was qualitatively different to that exhibited by Angelus, but that doesn't really work either in light of later events.

Really, the which vampire is best argument always boils down to, the best one is the one the individual involved in the argument likes best. I don't really get the need to bash the other one to prove the point, though.

Never have done.

[infinitewhale]

Me, either. I think Spike is more interesting and don't see the need to "prove" it. If you have to trash one character (or ship) to build up your own, that says more about your fave than theirs, IMO. There's nothing wrong with just liking something more. Of course, to be fair, it gets sketchy when the writers pass judgment as ME seemed to do.

I suppose you could argue that the type of humanity exhibited by Spike and Dru was qualitatively different to that exhibited by Angelus,

I think it does in that particular instance. Love vs enjoyment. That's why I mentioned Dalton who was killed for something as common as reading. Angelus clearly has his enjoyments that are at least on-par with that.

I've always thought Spike(lus) and Angelus were closer than many fans wanted to see, but that's something else. Spike works better for me because I think he more closely portrays the cherish/destroy dichotomy that many guys exhibit.

[spikesjojo]

I'm a Spangel fan, so there's no contest between them here. They're different men - and somehow it seems that if I point out something one of them did it is automatically assumed that I am saying something bad about the other. It's really rather amusing to defend Spike and have a whole bunch of great things about Angel thrown at me - because good things about Angel are good things. They have nothing to do with defending Spike. Honestly, I'd like to say it comes from both sides, but it really doesn't

[infinitewhale]

I agree. The constant back-and-forthing between the fanbases often reduces the characters to little more than cardboard. The two characters and their storylines are completely different and comparing them really isn't fair to either of them.

I don't much care who Buffy ends up with - though i honestly think she needs a break from a couple of high maintenance vamps.

That's the crux of it. All 3 of them get trapped in a fandom tug-of-war. It's literally TGIQ with each fanbase throwing out barbs are clocking points for their vamp.

[speakr2customrs]

Spike is better because he has much better taste in music. The Ramones, the Clash, and the Only Ones versus Barry sodding Manilow - no contest.

[infinitewhale]

Pfft.

He's also a ManU fan which invalidates any argument concerning his taste.

Also hockey > football.

[rebcake]

I support your argument re: taste. It has far too much influence on things like friendship and romance, but there you are.

[sueworld2003]

As per I don't have anything constructive to add. :) But is it okay to link to this on my lj?

[infinitewhale]

Oh, I don't care. Just random musings after running across a Spike-hating post.

[sueworld2003]

Oh god, where was this then? Buffyboards?

[infinitewhale]

Nah, IMDb, actually, then I saw it again on bumblr.

[kikimay]

I believe that Whedon re-invents the whole Angel-character after he decides to keep him alive post-Becoming. And so he came up with all these stuff about him and his personality. It's basically Angel 2.0, Being Picked as the Chosen One. And that's my belief.

If I do have to come up with an explanation within the text I would say that maybe the humanity the Judge was talking about was ... empathy? Some sort of residual goodness and ability to truly care for others? Like, you can paint and still be Hitler (LOL, this was quite fine *high-fives self*) ... But IDK. Angelus and Darla were supposed to be in love, right?

[infinitewhale]

I think you answer it in your first paragraph. I'd add another Angel in S1 where he's useless: 1.0. Then in S2 he came to SD to help Buffy: 2.0. Then after that he's slightly more consistent: 3.0.

It really boils down to inconsistent, seat-of-their-pants writing.

If I do have to come up with an explanation within the text I would say that maybe the humanity the Judge was talking about was ... empathy? Some sort of residual goodness and ability to truly care for others? Like, you can paint and still be Hitler (LOL, this was quite fine *high-fives self*) ... But IDK. Angelus and Darla were supposed to be in love, right?

You can be evil and still love, too. It just doesn't make any sense unless you acknowledge the writer. I didn't mean to say drawing=not evil, just that liking to do something was enough to get Dalton burned. Therefore it should be enough for Angelus.

They were supposed to be in love in their own vampire way, yeah.

[spikesjojo]

In Ats, but in flashbacks before Darla made a point of saying that she and Angelus didn't love each other. However, James and Elizabeth did love each other for well over a century.

Go figure, right?

[kikimay]

Yes! I mean, they could have said that they didn't love each other because they were *pretending* not to care. Although while Darla clearly loved Angelus, it's a little bit unclear when it comes to him. Did he ever really loved her? IDK.

I think you answer it in your first paragraph. I'd add another Angel in S1 where he's useless: 1.0. Then in S2 he came to SD to help Buffy: 2.0. Then after that he's slightly more consistent: 3.0.

LOL. True.

About Dalton ... maybe ... IDK.

Maybe Dalton was like "more sensitive" in general and he did read to """"feel""" feelings, while Angelus just draws for hobby but meanwhile he's plotting the murder of innocent nuns.

Like art for art's sake or art as an expression of empathetic feelings? (But where does the first starts and the second ends? And, I mean, how can you tell the difference? And it isn't both for most human beings?)

??????

This is so sketchy. No, I can't come up with a decent explanation. Whedon just re-thought the characterization.

[elisi]

This is why Spike/Buffy/Angel is the only sensible ship.

*firm nod*

[kikimay]

*agrees*

LOL