Spike v Angel

[infinitewhale]

This debate still goes on, which is the "better" vampire. It's a thing of passion for fans even now. Obviously there are the subjective reasons. We like one more than the other and look for reasons to prove our opinion. Thing is, the factors pointed to are not terribly well-constructed across both shows or even in a single season

Comments

[kikimay]

I believe that Whedon re-invents the whole Angel-character after he decides to keep him alive post-Becoming. And so he came up with all these stuff about him and his personality. It's basically Angel 2.0, Being Picked as the Chosen One. And that's my belief.

If I do have to come up with an explanation within the text I would say that maybe the humanity the Judge was talking about was ... empathy? Some sort of residual goodness and ability to truly care for others? Like, you can paint and still be Hitler (LOL, this was quite fine *high-fives self*) ... But IDK. Angelus and Darla were supposed to be in love, right?

[infinitewhale]

I think you answer it in your first paragraph. I'd add another Angel in S1 where he's useless: 1.0. Then in S2 he came to SD to help Buffy: 2.0. Then after that he's slightly more consistent: 3.0.

It really boils down to inconsistent, seat-of-their-pants writing.

If I do have to come up with an explanation within the text I would say that maybe the humanity the Judge was talking about was ... empathy? Some sort of residual goodness and ability to truly care for others? Like, you can paint and still be Hitler (LOL, this was quite fine *high-fives self*) ... But IDK. Angelus and Darla were supposed to be in love, right?

You can be evil and still love, too. It just doesn't make any sense unless you acknowledge the writer. I didn't mean to say drawing=not evil, just that liking to do something was enough to get Dalton burned. Therefore it should be enough for Angelus.

They were supposed to be in love in their own vampire way, yeah.

[spikesjojo]

In Ats, but in flashbacks before Darla made a point of saying that she and Angelus didn't love each other. However, James and Elizabeth did love each other for well over a century.

Go figure, right?

[kikimay]

Yes! I mean, they could have said that they didn't love each other because they were *pretending* not to care. Although while Darla clearly loved Angelus, it's a little bit unclear when it comes to him. Did he ever really loved her? IDK.

I think you answer it in your first paragraph. I'd add another Angel in S1 where he's useless: 1.0. Then in S2 he came to SD to help Buffy: 2.0. Then after that he's slightly more consistent: 3.0.

LOL. True.

About Dalton ... maybe ... IDK.

Maybe Dalton was like "more sensitive" in general and he did read to """"feel""" feelings, while Angelus just draws for hobby but meanwhile he's plotting the murder of innocent nuns.

Like art for art's sake or art as an expression of empathetic feelings? (But where does the first starts and the second ends? And, I mean, how can you tell the difference? And it isn't both for most human beings?)

??????

This is so sketchy. No, I can't come up with a decent explanation. Whedon just re-thought the characterization.

[spikesjojo]

Reading is taking in - and since books are written by humans than human qualities are inherent in them. The fact that he likes to read might really be the key - he like to experience human qualities vicariously.

Drawing is creating - he could be deciding which body parts to remove next?

As for Darla and Angelus - I was thinking of the flashback scene from Heart throb:

Elisabeth to Darla: "I heard he trapped you both in a barn and *you* fled, leaving him to die."

James: "It's not true."

Angelus looking at Darla: "It's entirely true. She hit me with a shovel, wished me luck and rode off on our only horse."

Darla smiles up at Angelus, leaning in close to him: "Life is full of surprises."

Angelus: "Ah, life is boring. You're full of surprises."

Darla: "Of course when you finally did catch up with me in Vienna I had to pay for my sins, again and again."

Angelus: "Hmm, can you even begin to fathom the things that we did? Of course not. You're in love."

They seemed rather proud of the fact that they were not in love.

[frelling_tralk]

It always seemed like Darla and Angelus did love one another to me, but that the writers liked to make a point with Angel realising that it wasn't *really* love after he got his soul back, or Darla realising that it wasn't *really* love after she became pregnant with Connor and rediscovered her soul. Dru's opinion that "we can love quite well" always made much more sense to me though, in human terms that's still love if you stay with someone for over 100 years out of choice, even if you later quality your feelings as not pure enough because you were lacking a soul at the time or whatever. You don't stay with someone for that many years unless you have some pretty deep feelings for the other person