Two things about Irishness

[idothattopeople]

1. Last night, I watched an episode of Law & Order* that heavily featured racism/classism against people of Irish origin. A bunch of kids at a prep school were involved in threats and a murder plot, and only the poor Irish kid gets kicked out of the school. All these old money characters were talking shit about him and his "kind", basically believing

Comments

[idothattopeople]

ETA: This isn't to say that I think the trope of "the drunk Irish" doesn't exist. And this trope does appear to be harmful to the reputation and dignity of Ireland and Irish people. I'm just wondering how much this trope actually relates to real-world experiences, and my experience suggests that the effect is limited...

[joaniechachi]

I think your experience is limited because a name isn't enough to trigger it. You're a white person whose speech sounds native to the US. If you were first-generation and had an accent, you'd be more likely to run into the reality of those stereotypes.

I'd guess that the Law & Order episode is influenced by one or more of the following:
*writers of an older generation, who grew up with such prejudice in greater force
*writers using Irish heritage as a stand-in for some more currently problematic prejudice
*the characters of "old money" background would actually have the prejudice because they're older and exclusive to a fault
*classism is a problem all on its own and the writers wanted to tackle it, then just happened to make the kid Irish

[idothattopeople]

I think you are totally right. It also goes to show how much Irish people have assimilated into general white culture.

[joaniechachi]

As have all the other white immigrants and white cultural minorities. Mostly, I think it's a function of having found bigger common enemies that either are not linked as tightly to a physical appearance or are linked to a non-white physical appearance (and therefore are lastingly visible). It started, I'd guess, with communism in the Cold War, and recently has shifted to Hispanic and Arabic/Muslim people. But as those prejudices went up, prejudice against (for example) Catholics went down. It's like prejudice got extra lazy, and we couldn't be bothered any more with the subtleties involved with hating people who otherwise looked and sounded just like us. Which brings me around to how first generation immigrants from just about anywhere face some resistance by people who think "them ferners" should just assimilate already, but if you're white, as soon as your voice sounds like everyone else, it's nigh on impossible to tell.

[boixboi]

This debate is raging (well, mildly peeving) right now in Boston, because the city has asked bars and liquor stores in the Irish neighborhood to close early on the day of the St. Patrick's Day parade. People are blaming it on the Irish = drunk stereotype, but the reality is that there is a history of issues following this parade, and no other parade or ethnic event in the city (Celtics championships notwithstanding).

After watching a few episodes of "Selling New York," though, I can almost believe there's a world of secret evil anti-Irish WASPs lurking in big city private schools.

[idothattopeople]

Closing the bars and liquor stores on the day of the parade might speak to the actions of non-Irish people coming to Boston to get rowdy as well as (or more than) the actions of the native Irish Bostonians. Although I can see how people would turn a practical decision (closing the bars) into an accusation of racism (and vice versa)...

[mintyfreshsocks]

I suspect that joaniechachi is right---it takes a lot more than a last name to trigger that kind of reaction. You're American, not Irish; people treat actual Irish people a whole lot differently than they treat Americans whose last names they happen to know.

Although I do have friends who've been given the "your family was Irish, drink up!" bit.

[idothattopeople]

I think you're right.

In terms of actual ancestry, I'm much closer to Italy (Falcone) than I am to Ireland (O'Brien) or Scotland (McCoy [Scotch Irish]) or France (Couterier). My mom's mom's mom was born in Italy, and she came to America in the early 1900s. Her daughter (my grandma) spoke Italian fluently. My mother could understand Italian growing up, but she never internalized it enough to actually be able to talk actively. Thus, I was never exposed to Italian in my childhood, and now the only Italian I know is whatever is consistent with my high school Spanish. Grrrr.

So yes. I am American, not Irish. I have an Irish last name, and I have extremely pale skin, but my hair is blonde and my eyes are blue. So, in the end, the ones who discriminate against me the most are fucking computers, who can't understand an apostrophe to save their lives.

On a related note, you should take a look at the Wikipedia page for Irish people. There are SO MANY more Irish-Americans than there are Irish people in Ireland. It is RIDONKULOUS.