Thoughts on last week's Torchwood

[iceshade]

First off, as of last week, my new policy on Torchwood is: I refuse to watch it until I know what's actually going to happen beforehand. I was massively triggered by episode 4x05 even though I knew what to expect, and I can't go through that again. I will put any spoilers under a cut, of course, however there is no longer such a thing as spoiling

Comments

[_thirty2flavors]

I'm not Jewish and have no personal triggers or connections to the Holocaust, and the last five minutes were incredibly, incredibly disturbing. For me, personally, it didn't cross the line into like ... unwatchable/crass/unneccessary/what have you, but I did suspect that for many people it would. I actually IMed bazcat89, who hasn't been following Miracle Day but has been meaning to catch up, in order to give her a low-down on it because I thought it would trigger her and she wouldn't want to watch. She doesn't, now, based just on my description

[iceshade]

Yeah, bazcat89 answered below, thank you for alerting her. It's nice to have someone who's also Jewish and understands in that personal way. But thank you also for commenting, because I know you're a big RTD fan and you could tell me if this is just starts going into hateboner territory, as I'm coming from the other side; I'm not happy with RTD, so is this just me looking for an excuse

[_thirty2flavors]

I think in general (so, removing circumstances like triggers and stuff from the discussion) it comes down to precisely how strong a reaction you're aiming for. And this definitely varies from person to person, so what works for one person might be too strong/too explicit/whatever for other people. There's not a lot that makes me squirm, and I'm also just not a very... idk what to call it; my mind doesn't generate very vivid mental images, so while lighting up the modules and implying Vera's death would definitely still have been sad and still have been cringey and uncomfortable, I don't think it would have had the same reaction from me, that actual knot-in-the-stomach visceral reaction. But as I said, I'm a tough audience in that sense, so I can see how somethign that works for me without crossing a line could easily cross a line for other people. In this context I think it's also important that I am so relatively removed from what the scene was evoking. I think graphic sexual violence would cross a line quicker for me than just, um,

[_thirty2flavors]

also holy wall of text Batman, I'm sorry!

[thrace_adams]

OH bb I was horrified when I watched that - although not having a personal/heritage connection I will admit it didn't upset me as much as Ianto dying - not emotionally - BUT my first thought when I fully realized what was happening - which tbh didn't happen until the Gwen shot when she saw the smoke going up into the air - was the Nazi Concentration camps and just how tasteless it was and just how - I don't even know the right word for it - but inappropriate? I was just completely put off by it - it wasn't as upsetting for me as it sounds like it was for you

[iceshade]

Based on the reactions I've read, a lot of people guessed what the modules were for before they actually showed it. I either would have guessed right away because I'm hypersensitive (and genre savvy) or not guessed until they told us because it just wouldn't occur to me that people would actually do that again. The thing is, the fact that they went there-- death camps masquerading as overflow camps-- it bothers me, but I understand why they did it. My issue was with how graphic it was.

You've either been to Majdanek or Auschwitz I. If it was also mostly intact and had a mountain of ashes it was Majdanek, it it had cases and cases of other things taken from prisoners (hair, suitcases, appliances) and was more like a museum than it was Auschwitz.

That's pretty much my point exactly. They could have implied what happened to Vera by showing them putting her in a module and then cutting to Gwen and Rhys, but they left it in purely for the shock value.

[madder_rose]

Coming from where you do I don't think you're overreacting. This was a disturbing episode and the reveal was terrible. I didn't have the same reaction as you but it was horrifying and disturbing like I can't describe, and I can't imagine having that personal relationship at all. Like thirty2flavors said above, I think it depends on your heritage as well, but it would be strange didn't have some form of reaction in some way by the reveal of what the overflow camps were

[iceshade]

Re your last paragraph: I've not only grown up religious, but through high school I went to religious schools as well. We observed Yom HaShoah-- which is a day set aside specifically for those who died in the holocaust as in most cases we don't actually know their date of death (there are special prayers you say, etc.)-- every year in school, had candle lighting ceremonies, and survivors would come speak to us. To me, the idea of WWII and the attempted genocides being forgotten is almost inconceivable because I've grown up surrounded by it. (Also, I have grandparents who never remember which stories they've told me, so every time they visit... but that's yet another thing).

Again, I'm not arguing that RTD shouldn't have gone there at all-- overflow death camps-- actually I'd probably be more surprised if he hadn't, but I think seeing Vera actually in hysterics and burning just crosses a line for me. I understand (somewhat) why he killed her, which brings a whole different set of plot issues such as A) cremation doesn't completely

[madder_rose]

You're making perfect sense.

I think part of the problem is that old thing of if it didn't affect me or mine, it's just history. Except it's really not. People tend to forget that as the genocide went on anyone was up for internment and the Nazis had a system for everyone. Gays, transsexuals, deviants, alternate religions, the handicapped, anyone who didn't agree to the party line... They sent their 'own' people to the camps for cripes sake! I think I was the only one in my class during elementary school who had family affected by war crimes by both Nazis and the russians. My mother's side is still pretty fucked up.

It'd be good if we weren't such a homogenous society (pretty much all of Europe is in spite of what most of us think!) and got to know each other a bit more we'd be fine.

Don't know if they had warnings. They would have warnings of some sort here unless it was ppv or ppchannel, but yeah, that was brutal.

[karaokegal]

Emotions, especially ones that powerful, can never be called "wrong" or even "over-reacting." I personally didn't get affected that way, but I was heavily spoiled so I knew exactly what was going to happen. If I'd been blind-sided, it might have been worse

[iceshade]

<3 See, the thing is, I wasn't blindsided. I was reading through the comments on the gleeclub posts (I think) and I saw Vera being burned mentioned. I think I went "omgwtf no you can't be serious D8" and even though at that point I had yet to see episode 4, I skipped to see the end of ep. 5 to see if they'd really gone there. And when I saw they had, even know it was coming I flipped out. Oddly enough, the Library DW episodes are the ones that scare me the most, since they tap into my residual fear of the dark, but I can watch them over and over again. But that may be because I LOVE River Song and Donna... ANYWAYS

[karaokegal]

It's been one hell of an emotional roller-coaster, that's for sure. And while some people hate the Torchwood fandom as a whole for being "wanky," I think it's really just (mostly) literate, intelligent and incredibly passionate.

In a way, I'm looking forward to the end of the new series, just so I can take a deep breath and process what's really happened, which I can't do when I'm on a see-saw between squeeee and agitation.

[bazcat89]

*MASSIVE HUG*

Dude I completely understand. _thirty2flavors messaged me about the episode in case it triggered me, and just hearing about it made me ill. I'm still incredibly disturbed by it, days later, even though I didn't even watch the damn thing.

You are not over-reacting. Death camp imagery triggers the shit out of me too. Actually, concentration camp type stuff in general triggers me. I can't even go into a Holocaust museum anymore without hyperventilating.

I am a fan of RTD and his work, and I know trigger warnings are fandom things, but I wish creators like him would spend a moment or two reflecting on the fact that living people have relatives who were murdered in death camps similar to the ones depicted in his work, and maybe put a warning on like "Extremely violent death camp imagery" before it starts out of consideration. Or something.

[iceshade]

::HUGS BACK::
I actually didn't realize you were watching Miracle Day, and I'm glad you were able to be forewarned. I don't think the death camp imagery would have bothered me as much if it had been done with more tact. Also based on RTD's track record with CoE as well, he likes to do these things to horrify us rather than inspire social commentary (imo), which also bothers me.

I know trigger warnings are fandom things, so that's why I'm not mad about the fact that there wasn't a warning before the episode, I was just wondering if there had been. Because sometimes they do that on TV before really graphic shows or something, I've seen it.