braindump

[hesychasm]

I should be studying, but I am taking a break to talk about recently consumed TV. Fancy that, I actually watch something other than FNL! Beware of spoilers for the shows generally.

Comments

[likeadeuce]

And also that great moment in "Awakening," when Angel fantasized that Wesley finally did apologize for being wrong about something, and remarked on how surprising it was.Heh, funny thing -- "Awakening" is an episode that really makes it hard for me to like Angel. Granted, I'm not sure that anybody's 'perfect life' fantasies being realized would make them look really good (by necessity, it involves manipulating other people into the people you want them to be). But Angel doesn't just say 'you never apologized for stealing the baby' (though my response to that would be, "No, dumbass, he just pulled you out of the water and fed you his damn blood!") He says "You never apologized for anything, ever," -- when Wesley basically spent the first two years on the show apologizing for bothering everyone else by being alive. Not to mention that he was (too?) forgiving of Angel's involvement in killing the lawyers, so there's a little pot & kettle going on there. Now, granted, I think that Wesley made a lot of poor choices, but I don't think

[hesychasm]

vid is here, just do a CTRL-F for "Paradise"It's interesting about Wesley -- I agree that up until "Sleep Tight" he was a sort of cringing, over-apologetic type, and I'm sure other people could do better character analyses of his overall arc and developments. But possibly starting from when he assumed control of AI and began asserting himself, and making leadership decisions, he gradually begins to lose my sympathy. (I re-watched S3 as well, forgot to mention that in the post -- his dressing down of Gunn in "That Old Gang of Mine," while understandable, was not one of his best moments.) And I don't think his earlier apologies for merely existing should count toward any sort of sympathy bank account when it comes to his later actions

[likeadeuce]

Oh, yes, I definitely got that about Cordelia in your story. I think you did a great job of balancing her obligations to Wes and to Angel (better than canon did, sigh

[hesychasm]

I don't think a verbal apology would be more important, but it certainly would have its own kind of power in addition to the life vs. life back-and-forth between "Forgiving" and "Deep Down." I guess the way I think of it is sort of economic:

First wrong done: Wesley taking Connor
Second wrong done: Angel attacking Wesley
First reparation: Wesley rescuing Angel
Second reparation: ?? <--- this is where the apology or something should have come in, as opposed to Wesley's resentment about being rejected

[cofax7]

And it was weird to have him commit to something so final and door-closing, without any real comment on it whatsoever.

Yeah. Destina argues that this was why Sam was so quiet in the beginning sequences, letting Dean get into the fights and so forth, but it would have been nice to get something textual. OTOH, it may well be that the writers haven't realized that very few bar associations are going to admit you if you broke out of jail, even if you were innocent of the underlying charges...

[hesychasm]

Yeah, I saw her post, but thought she was commenting more on Sam freaking out in his present circumstances of being in jail with criminals, and less so on the fact of all of Sam's dreams going down the toilet, once and for all. Because yep, if he ever does decide he's done with hunting and wants to go back, he really can't now. People keep calling for prison!fic, but what I wonder is if we'll continue to see stories about Sam giving it all up to be a lawyer, like I just saw in meyerlemon's.

[coffeeandink]

In a world where cops let criminals go randomly, public defenders wander into the prosecuting investigator's office and expect to be taken seriously for saying the case is just ... "strange," and lawyers lie to the FBI in a way that's easily proven and yet aren't worried about getting caught, I'm not convinced a jailbreak will in fact prove any detriment to Sam's chances of being a lawyer.

[hesychasm]

Oh, fine. Ruin my one attempt to take this show seriously.

[hesychasm]

Oooh, I bet there are some awesome vids! It's a really gorgeous show. Since I've only got about three more eps to go (yay for short British series!) I'll definitely look forward to checking that one out.

[kita0610]

It's so awesome to see you talking about Angel again.

The last two seasons were in fact, my favorites. I - have mixed feelings about Wesley. I think that he did what he believed to be right, out of love. But I also think there is just no way to justify that to the rest of Connor's family, *especially* Angel. It was the sin of hubris, and no one writes that as well as Joss. Everyone on Team Angel suffers from it as their major character flaw- certainly it is, in the end, what killed Cordelia.

I think Wesley dying for Angel and his mission was the apology. And I think Angel trusting Wesley to do it was his. For all I love Angel more than anyone, ever, Wesley is the better *man*. Angel just isn't a nice guy. Of course, he doesn't have to be, he's the King.

[hesychasm]

I always meant to get officially caught up on Angel again -- I felt so bitter about both shows, but whereas I couldn't get over Buffy since S7 there was one of the major problems, I really did enjoy what I saw of the last two seasons of Angel when they first aired, and it was just life and lack of access that kept me from seeing the rest. (Although I knew everything that happened, of course.)

I definitely agree that Wesley did what he felt was necessary, and his downward spiral after that was fascinating to watch and really well done, but yeah, hard to keep loving a character who almost singlehandedly broke up the family, even though that breakup was such good TV.

But I can get behind that, that the last mission was both of them coming to terms, which they sort of needed to do all over again after "Origin." (I HAVE SUCH A CRUSH ON NEW CONNOR OMG.) And you are so fucking right about hubris being everyone's major flaw. I mean, they thought they could fix W&H from inside! What an awesomely bad decision. :-D

I actually liked the

[kita0610]

Apparently there was some (alot) of behind the scenes shit with Charisma that limited the Cordy arc to the horrible version we saw. I don't know details, but there's a lot of insider bitterness on both sides.

I LOVE THAT YOU LOVE CONNOR OMG. Please write him. There's nowhere near enough.

[hesychasm]

Heh, I noticed the lack 'cuz I've been looking myself. I actually had a little plot bunny, but it's gotta wait until after exams and after I finish this other story....

[silveraspen]

Here by way of a link from coffeeandink.

And it was weird to have him commit to something so final and door-closing, without any real comment on it whatsoever.

I completely agree with this. And I tell you what, it unnerves me a great deal to see that, too. We had Sam arguing with Dean about how stupid the plan was, and it was very, very clear just how much he hated it before, during, and probably after-- but never once did he tell his brother "don't do this, because you're ruining my future."

Which is a bit of silence that speaks very loudly, and indicates that Sam may not actually believe that he has a future any more.

Did I mention how it unnerves me?

[hesychasm]

Oh, geez, forgive me for being rude and taking so long to reply to this. RL = crazy.

That's a really interesting read on Sam! Especially given the eps that followed, in which I've seen people interpret Dean's wish as a desire for "rest" (for very broad definitions of "rest"), whereas Sam seemed more settled with everything they've given up in exchange for the good they've done. And now, of course, with how part 1 of the finale ended, where death maybe equals no future whatsoever (well, for as long as Sam stays dead, anyway).... I think you were right to be unnerved. And let's just say I'm very interested to see what happens Thursday night.