Locke didn't really interest me until the end when he says his name is not Locke Lamora. Then I was like, "Wait, he's a lot deeper than I thought." But yeah, I mostly read LLL for Jean because he's awesome.
I am not surprised you love the Spider! She was awesome. (And also old. :P)
Jean was also awesome. I think I was also reading mostly for him, and also a bit the Salvaras because I'm weird like that. (I would totally read a novel that was just Sofia and Lorenzo learning Spidering from Dona Vorchenza and being adorable together, with Conte taking care of them, and Stephen hovering around Dona V as a dutiful son. Something tells me that's not what the sequel to LLL is actually about :P But I will settle for further instances of Jean being awesome. Which, if the teaser pages in my LLL paperback are anything to go buy, RSoRS contains plenty of.)
Mmm. I'm not sure how I feel about lady pirates... The only ones I've encountered -- Elizabeth Swann and Jessica (?I think?) from the Swordspoint sequels -- were not particularly to my taste. But will endeavor to find out about these particular lady pirates!
It's been quite a long time since I read Lies - I read it when it first came out, so a couple of years at least, I think - so my specific memories are kind of vague. I remember devouring it very quickly, as you did, and definitely thinking some plot points were weighted in Locke's favor, but I also remember quite liking him. I have a definite tendency to fall for the hero, though. But like you, I also adored pretty much all the secondary characters, and was very upset by the untimely deaths. I hadn't known Lynch had a journal, but I see he and GRRM are friends, so he seems to have picked up that effective but upsetting "nobody's safe" attitude Martin excels at.
I actually have a tendency not to like heroes right away -- it took me quite a while to really start loving Miles, for instance. I liked him just fine -- I just liked lots of other people (Aral, Cordelia, Mark, Gregor) much more. But I was expecting to like Locke more because he's a trickster and I do tend to love those. But oh well.
Good point about possibly taking a leaf out of GRRM's book! The Bastards dynamic seemed so solid and unshakeable I really didn't expect any of them to die, and once Calo and Galdo were dead I didn't expect anyone else to die, least of all Bug, and so I spent the rest of the book in fear for Jean Tannen. I was not happy about the deaths, but they were certainly effective, I'll give Lynch that.
I get what you mean about enjoying Lies of Locke Lamora more than you liked it; I think that's part of why I couldn't really get into the second book and gave up after a few chapters. I had fun reading it, but afterward there were things that bugged me--particularly the dearth of female characters. Sofia and Dona Vorchenza are awesome, but they're only in a handful of chapters, and the other ladies are one-dimensional, get fridged, or don't even appear in the book. Given that Camorr seemed less male-dominated than Westeros, it seemed amiss that women are on the periphery for the most part.
I do love that Locke's superpower is basically acting, though. Particularly the section where he has to pull off that crazy-improvised con game in the bank because he can't be Lukas without the proper clothes. It did my costumer's heart proud. XD
You make a good point about the dearth of female characters -- and there not being a good reason for it. I loved Sofia and Dona V and would've liked to have them there for much larger chunks. (Heck, as I was just commenting to Emily above, I would totally read a book that was centered around Sofia and Dona Vorchenza (and Lorenzo and Conte and Stephen).) But while Nazca is clearly supposed to be badass, she didn't feel particularly real to me (and, as you point out, was fridged), and Capa Raza's sisters don't really qualify as characters so much as plot devices. And Sabetha is clearly supposed to be presumed awesome, but that's not like actually having her in the book. I loved the dynamic of the Bastards as it was, but, yeah...
I do love that Locke's superpower is basically acting, thoughHaha, I hadn't thought of it that way, but, yeah, TOTALLY! That's a great way to put it, and was a very amusing aspect of the book for me, from the first time it's mentioned, when he's still with the Thieftaker and being a little too conspicuous with
( ... )
Argh, I know! There's next to no fanart for that series on deviantArt, and the couple that do exist seem to forget that Flora isn't a skinny waif. (Even though the fact that she's not is a Plot Point! Arghhh.) I intend to fix this, because all the characters have such detailed designs that someone needs to draw them. Buck and the other military characters in particular!
I intend to fix this, because all the characters have such detailed designs that someone needs to draw them
OMG, if you do, that shall make me very, very happy! :DD Especially since I feel like your style is particularly well suited to Flora's world, and vice versa.
And I've been trying to visualize what Califa military dress would look like, kilts and make-up and all, with very limitd success, so I can't wait to see it done right!
Not reading your review or comments because I might actually finish it someday.
I tried to read Locke Lamora and really didn't like it. Locke was boring and seemed like such an egdy!genius!badass! that like...god, whatever. Also--reminded me too much of my issues with Oceans 11 and the FUNTIMESBOYZCLUB. I mean, I had issues. I keep telling myself I'll actually finish it so I can have a real opinion on it outside of just a knee-jerk reaction.
Yeah, just seems like a trend with a lot of male authors that women are objects of desire, mothers, lovers, queens, women to be protected, sometimes even protectors but...they aren't usually fun! The merry band of men is always a merry band of ...men.
I'm about to embark on reading a book (by a male author) which is an epic fantasy ~pastiche of The Three Musketeers where the Porthos role (arguably the most fun and/or merry of the four?) is filled by a woman. I shall report back on it.
Oh, hey! I can think of another example, from the Discworld books. Most of Pratchett's women are fun, but especially Granny Watherwax and Nanny Ogg. Well, Granny would object most strenuously to being considered "fun", but she totally is. ETA: Although, hmm... I don't know if it's worth noting, but Pratchett's fun women seem to only come up in contexts where the main characters are all women; in mixed gender groups his woen are a lot of wonderful things, including funny, but I'm not sure I'd call any of them fun.
I did think of another example of a fun woman (this one in otherwise-all-male company, though, which could also be less than ideal) -- Kitai from Jim Butcher's Alera books. (I have a lot of isues with those books, but Kitai I love pretty much unreservedly.)
(2) you've read ellen kushner's swordspoint as well. excellent. i didn't mind the sequel (the privilege of the sword, not the other sequel, mostly because i shipped katherine and marcus from day one and that kept it shiny for me. it could be that i just have a thing for puppy love though. ~kanyeshrug~
(3) you are a much more thorough reviewer than i am and i tip my hat to you but the truth is, i didn't have to go into plot intricacies to pinpoint why i didn't enjoy the book as much as i liked it (as that seems to be the general consensus, all hail anna's way with words). we seem to be doing this thing where we use GRRM as a convenient benchmark for contemporary fantasy authors (i am with you & james on the abercrombie critique) so here goes: i think scott lynch is a magician. a stage magician. he's very good at what he does, which is create a spectacle. it's choreographed just like one of locke's capers, and what's more he's aware that he's
( ... )
(2) I actually liked Privilege of the Sword (which I read first) a lot more than I liked Swordspoint. I just think it's a better book, without the messy structure and random loose ends that Swordspoint has. I adore Richard, but can't take Alec -- in either book -- as anything other than bad news. I don't find him charming or intriguing, I just want to tell Richard to go find someone to be with who isn't fucking crazy.
Katherine, on the other hand, rocks! I loved that she wasn't a tomboy type, and I really liked her dynamic with Marcus (I was shipping them, too) and Artemisia (I could easily ship the two of them, as well, though I generally don't get pinged by femslash).
The Fall of the Kings, on the other hand, I disliked more than I liked. The only thing that appealed to me about it was the deftly drawn academic setting. Everything else just felt WEIRD. (The whole thing is written up somewhere... I have a swordspoint tag, but apparently the one thing I didn't actually tag with it is the actual Swordspoint. Ah
( ... )
where is the all-female coterie of lovable rouges who are always getting in trouble, whose hijinks are the stuff of legend, whose interactions are begging for genfic to be written about them (though no one would say no to shippy fic)?? I think we may have had this discussion where I was listing out favorite character types and finding that examples of them were all male? And that did get me to wondering where all their female counterparts were -- the lovable rogues and the competent tyrants and the women of unflinching personal morality who are nevertheless ruthless monsters when measured by the standard moral scale. Aand they don't really seem to exist, and I don't know why... because the weight of historical archetypes is too strong
( ... )
I actually love me some FUNTIEMZBOYSCLUBs. I can read them and enjoy the hell out of them and not miss the absent women, so long as the boys are sufficiently awesome. The mixed gender versions of these (I totally thougt of the Animorphs before you metioned them) are great, too! But I do start wondering, where are the all-female examples, as you do. "
Yeah I would actually probably love these stories if there were female versions too. They can be very fun, but I get all resentful and sullen.
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Also I love the Spider. :D Crafty old ladies ftw.
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Jean was also awesome. I think I was also reading mostly for him, and also a bit the Salvaras because I'm weird like that. (I would totally read a novel that was just Sofia and Lorenzo learning Spidering from Dona Vorchenza and being adorable together, with Conte taking care of them, and Stephen hovering around Dona V as a dutiful son. Something tells me that's not what the sequel to LLL is actually about :P But I will settle for further instances of Jean being awesome. Which, if the teaser pages in my LLL paperback are anything to go buy, RSoRS contains plenty of.)
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... And Jean and Locke. But mostly lady pirates!
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Good point about possibly taking a leaf out of GRRM's book! The Bastards dynamic seemed so solid and unshakeable I really didn't expect any of them to die, and once Calo and Galdo were dead I didn't expect anyone else to die, least of all Bug, and so I spent the rest of the book in fear for Jean Tannen. I was not happy about the deaths, but they were certainly effective, I'll give Lynch that.
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I do love that Locke's superpower is basically acting, though. Particularly the section where he has to pull off that crazy-improvised con game in the bank because he can't be Lukas without the proper clothes. It did my costumer's heart proud. XD
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I do love that Locke's superpower is basically acting, thoughHaha, I hadn't thought of it that way, but, yeah, TOTALLY! That's a great way to put it, and was a very amusing aspect of the book for me, from the first time it's mentioned, when he's still with the Thieftaker and being a little too conspicuous with ( ... )
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OMG, if you do, that shall make me very, very happy! :DD Especially since I feel like your style is particularly well suited to Flora's world, and vice versa.
And I've been trying to visualize what Califa military dress would look like, kilts and make-up and all, with very limitd success, so I can't wait to see it done right!
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I tried to read Locke Lamora and really didn't like it. Locke was boring and seemed like such an egdy!genius!badass! that like...god, whatever. Also--reminded me too much of my issues with Oceans 11 and the FUNTIMESBOYZCLUB. I mean, I had issues. I keep telling myself I'll actually finish it so I can have a real opinion on it outside of just a knee-jerk reaction.
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aha! i knew there were lots more i was missing. i have issues with that trope.
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Oh, hey! I can think of another example, from the Discworld books. Most of Pratchett's women are fun, but especially Granny Watherwax and Nanny Ogg. Well, Granny would object most strenuously to being considered "fun", but she totally is. ETA: Although, hmm... I don't know if it's worth noting, but Pratchett's fun women seem to only come up in contexts where the main characters are all women; in mixed gender groups his woen are a lot of wonderful things, including funny, but I'm not sure I'd call any of them fun.
I did think of another example of a fun woman (this one in otherwise-all-male company, though, which could also be less than ideal) -- Kitai from Jim Butcher's Alera books. (I have a lot of isues with those books, but Kitai I love pretty much unreservedly.)
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(1) you finally read it. now we can party!
(2) you've read ellen kushner's swordspoint as well. excellent. i didn't mind the sequel (the privilege of the sword, not the other sequel, mostly because i shipped katherine and marcus from day one and that kept it shiny for me. it could be that i just have a thing for puppy love though. ~kanyeshrug~
(3) you are a much more thorough reviewer than i am and i tip my hat to you but the truth is, i didn't have to go into plot intricacies to pinpoint why i didn't enjoy the book as much as i liked it (as that seems to be the general consensus, all hail anna's way with words). we seem to be doing this thing where we use GRRM as a convenient benchmark for contemporary fantasy authors (i am with you & james on the abercrombie critique) so here goes: i think scott lynch is a magician. a stage magician. he's very good at what he does, which is create a spectacle. it's choreographed just like one of locke's capers, and what's more he's aware that he's ( ... )
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(2) I actually liked Privilege of the Sword (which I read first) a lot more than I liked Swordspoint. I just think it's a better book, without the messy structure and random loose ends that Swordspoint has. I adore Richard, but can't take Alec -- in either book -- as anything other than bad news. I don't find him charming or intriguing, I just want to tell Richard to go find someone to be with who isn't fucking crazy.
Katherine, on the other hand, rocks! I loved that she wasn't a tomboy type, and I really liked her dynamic with Marcus (I was shipping them, too) and Artemisia (I could easily ship the two of them, as well, though I generally don't get pinged by femslash).
The Fall of the Kings, on the other hand, I disliked more than I liked. The only thing that appealed to me about it was the deftly drawn academic setting. Everything else just felt WEIRD. (The whole thing is written up somewhere... I have a swordspoint tag, but apparently the one thing I didn't actually tag with it is the actual Swordspoint. Ah ( ... )
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where is the all-female coterie of lovable rouges who are always getting in trouble, whose hijinks are the stuff of legend, whose interactions are begging for genfic to be written about them (though no one would say no to shippy fic)?? I think we may have had this discussion where I was listing out favorite character types and finding that examples of them were all male? And that did get me to wondering where all their female counterparts were -- the lovable rogues and the competent tyrants and the women of unflinching personal morality who are nevertheless ruthless monsters when measured by the standard moral scale. Aand they don't really seem to exist, and I don't know why... because the weight of historical archetypes is too strong ( ... )
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I actually love me some FUNTIEMZBOYSCLUBs. I can read them and enjoy the hell out of them and not miss the absent women, so long as the boys are sufficiently awesome. The mixed gender versions of these (I totally thougt of the Animorphs before you metioned them) are great, too! But I do start wondering, where are the all-female examples, as you do. "
Yeah I would actually probably love these stories if there were female versions too. They can be very fun, but I get all resentful and sullen.
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