On positive reinforcement and clicker training

[glenatron]

One of the most endless and repetative discussions that turns up from time to time among Natural Horsemanship types is the conversation about Positive Reinforcement, which is an entirely reward-based way of training animals used very effectively by a lot of animal trainers. I think it's a great way of training animals in general, but not a

Comments

[dancing_crow]

I see completely what you mean. I was using it for some ground work with the mares I work with because I needed a new way to come at the problem

[glenatron]

That's how I see it too- it's a tool you can use for some discrete jobs and it works fine for that. I have other tools to do the same job, but they're no better or worse really, they just fit in with everything else I do.

The people who bother me are the ones who tell me that to use anything other than Positive Reinforcement is basically the same as cruelty and how you can solve any problem through pure +R training. I think they are wrong and that they are -at best- unlikely to ever be able to get much done with their horses. You can't manage life forever so that a horse is never afraid, not if that horse is ever going to have a job to do, but that approach basically can't work in that environment. I heard of a clicker training demo where they got some nice work but the demonstrator nearly got herself flattened at the end because her horse was scared by the applause and they had nothing in place to handle that.

It all gets a bit One True Way for me.

[joycemocha]

I don't use clickers at all. However, I use food treats on the ground, as well as verbal praise and scratches. The cluck tends to be my standard vocal cue

[glenatron]

Mugwump is as NH as I am by this point- she learned with Ray Hunt and a few of the other people who influence the people I learn with - I like a lot of what she has to say. I'd do some things differently to her recommendation but her general approach is very sound indeed. I haven't seen those posts, but I'll look them out.

The timing and release things, those are a part of riding already and it seems more logical to me to build up around those rather than putting something in you'll need to take out later.

[penella22]

Two thoughts

[glenatron]

The thing about non-food rewards is that you have to have a horse that wants them- most horses want food most of the time, whereas sometimes they are itchy in one place, sometimes another- Zorro's strongest non-food motivator is scratching his arse-cleavage ( to the point he will practically sit on me in the stable sometimes ) and I'm just not sure how I could use that from the saddle and I'm pretty sure I don't want to.

I don't mind using food rewards at all - it's how sleepsy_mouse has trained Small to be perfect at the mounting block - he goes and waits there and doesn't go until he's had a snackie - but the people who bother me are the ones who will only use positive reinforcement for training. They tend to get very religious about it, often very rude to anyone who doesn't do things their way ( for people who need to be positive there is a whole lot of negativity they carry around with them ) and generally irritate me. The post on The Dog Whisperer from this page is quite relevant.

[fleefloodle]

Personally, I couldn't see clicker training working with either of ours. Willow tends to have a meltdown about noises she doesn't understand (ie phones, speakers etc) and I suspect a clicker would have a similar effect. Ranger is too food orientated, and any training method involving treats (even if only in the early stages) would likely result in a very heavy, very strong pony attempting to obtain food from you in a rather indelicate way

[glenatron]

I think positive reinforcement is pretty handy for animals in general and I certainly use rubs and scratchies as a reward with my horse ( but also just when we're sharing some undemanding time- a training regime that suggested one should only use those as training aids would not work for me at all ) but I see it as a nice thing to do, but not core to anything.

Negative reinforcement is how horses communicate among themselves and it's the approach that I use in most training- any time you apply your leg to ask the horse forward, put pressure on the rein to ask for a bend or anything else along those lines that is negative reinforcement after all - and I honestly can't imagine getting close to the results I am getting if I wasn't using it.

I think the source of that "one thing" idea is that you see a really good trainer and you think that the thing they do must work for every horse and it does work for them with every horse and it's not until you've got a reasonably clear understanding of what they are actually doing that you can see