Guidelines for Rape Discussions: For Men (and Women...but mainly men)
I've been spending my free time reading through this awesome post and the comments. Most of the comments are fantastic and wonderful and really really make me feel warm and fuzzy in the lamest way possible ("hey, I got really drunk around this guy and he didn't rape me!" "OMG that's awesome!")
Some comments are making me *headdesk* repeatedly while lamenting for the state of the world.
So here's something I've always wanted to do up, especially as the topic seems to come up a lot in my LJ (cause, ya know, it's a hot button thing for me).
So here you go.
Context matters!
Not all rape conversations are the same. They exist in a myriad of different contexts and environments. Rape can be a topic in:
1. A discussion about a fictional rape scene.
- Feel free to jump in. It isn't about you. It isn't about anybody in the real world. It's about a fictional depiction of rape, how it might relate to the real world, etc. Don't make it personal because it's not.
2. A discussion among survivors of rape.
- Unless you are a survivor, this is not your discussion. I'm not a rape survivor. This isn't my discussion, either. Have some manners, people.
3. A discussion about how rape affects women
- Odds are, this is not about you. Unless you are a rapist or have been raped, then it's absolutely not about you. Don't make it about you. It's an attempt to focus on an issue that, for much of history, has been swept to the side, excused, or ignored. By jumping in in an attempt to defend men, you're carrying out old, sexist patterns.
This is not to say your participation isn't welcome. However, these conversations are ones that are best that you sit and listen and absorb. Make a supportive statement and sit out. Don't ignore it. For the love of all that is holy, don't pass it by. Because it is something men need to be aware of. But just shut up for a sec, and let women discuss the topic. For too long, we haven't been allowed to do so.
4. A discussion about the rape culture and how it affects men. (This is along the lines of cereta's post)
- This is about you. Except when it isn't.
This can be a difficult subject if you're just dipping your toes into it. It's a discussion on the fact that there is a persistent culture that the patriarchy creates that excuses and condones rape. So, yes, this touches all men. However, these discussions also aren't about all men because there are always the men who were raised non-traditionally that would never ever consider doing this to a woman and they never see any hints of the rape culture around them and they're never put in a situation where they have to deal with it.
And if that's you, I congratulate and am very envious that you live in that world. Now sit down, shut up, listen and absorb while the people who are affected by this culture (men and women) discuss how this happens, the problems with it, possible solutions, etc.
I've said it before in a different context, but it bears repeating: It's not not a problem if it doesn't affect you. You =/= the world.
5. There are many, many more types of discussions that can take place.
The point is, use your discretion. Instead of reading one sentence and getting defensive, stop and read (or listen if we're in the real world) what's already out there. Think on it. Assess whether what you have to add is appropriate for the type of discussion that is going on.
Unless you've been raped, we don't need to hear your life story.
I'll be blunt: no, we don't need to hear about your life as a boy, growing up among other boys who teased you for not being "manly" enough, and how you always sympathized with women and you're really not part of the problem because you live in a special Patriarchy-Free bubble that your parents gave you, and it excludes you to discuss rape because it doesn't recognize that YOU EXIST, which causes more self-esteem issues for you and...
I'll say it again, it's not about you. Your problems are relevant...somewhere else.
My world is not your world.
You may go through your life without ever thinking about rape. And that's fantastic!
I live in a different world, though, and I do have to think about this every day, every time I go out, every time I meet a new guy, every time a friend tells me she's been raped, etc.
The world exists outside you and your perceptions. Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean it's not there. That's part of your privilege (Oh! I used the "p" word!). You get to ignore/not notice/not be affected by rape culture.
I don't.
We're not blaming you. We're blaming the institution.
I very rarely hear it actually said that "all men are rapists" (except as a strawman by people attempting to derail a feminist discussion on rape). However, there is a glimmer of relevance in that statement, though I'd phrase it more like "women are conditioned to see all men as potential rapists". And, this sucks.
Believe you me, I wish I could go to a party of someone I only barely know without any back-up from my homegirls, get wildly drunk, then rely on Random Guy to get me home. But I can't, because if I did and if anything happened, I would have been "asking for it".
So, yes, it's unfair that I get nervous when I'm the only women in a large crowd of men. It's unfair that, on a date with a man, I have to spend time assessing whether he might "try anything" at the end of the night while the thought of rape never even crosses his mind. And it's very unfair that I have to assume the worst of any guy I might meet for my own protection.
It's not my shit, though. I didn't make this problem. The women talking about it didn't make this problem. The survivors didn't make this problem. And, yes, as an individual man, you may not have made this problem.
However, the patriarchy did. And, whether you like it or not, as a man, you're part of the patriarchy. And it sucks for me more than it does for you.
There's a quote commonly attributed to Margaret Atwood, though I'm failing on my Google-fu and can't seem to find a reference. Regardless:
"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them,"
If I assume that any man I meet may rape me, the worst that happens to you, as a male, is that your feelings get hurt.
If I don't assume that any man I meet may rape me, I might get killed.
Sorry, folks, I'll keep up the vigilance.
Odds are, you know someone that is a rapist.
Nobody likes to think about this. We often talk about the victims, pointing out how most of us know a rape survivor to draw attention to its prevalence. However, there is a flipside, because for every victim, there is a rapist (sometimes more than one). And...well...we know them, too. And we may think they're an alright guy who would never do something like that.
cereta's post gave me a new site for statistics (with references! *love*) including some that I'd seen a while ago and have been looking for ever since.
Let me throw a couple at you, because numbers are nifty. (sources are attributed on the site linked to above)
1. 8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape.
- This is part of the problem. Men who commit rape who unequivocally deny what they did is rape. As I've said before, rapists are not the slobbering, shifty-eyed perverts hiding in bushes and kicking puppies. They are regular guys who never learned the rules of consent (or did, but don't care).
Hence my rallying cry: Stop raping people!
2. More than one in five men report "becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent."
- Guys, gives yourselves more credit than this, please.
3. 35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn't be caught or punished.
- And this terrifies me.
4. Of those rapes reported to the police (which is 1/3 or less to begin with), only 16% result in prison sentences. Therefore, approximately 5% of the time, a man who rapes ends up in prison, 95% of the time he does not.
Guys (and ladies), it is likely that you a) know a guy who raped someone b) who never received any punishment for it c) that may not recognize what they did was rape d) and who would likely do it again if given the chance.
There is no "reverse sexism".
Take that phrase, wad it into an itty-bitty ball, stomp on it, steamroll it, then burn it in a fire.
Sexism, for most feminist discussions, is discrimination because of gender, backed up with insititutional power. Which men have. And women do not.
Me saying, "All men suck" doesn't have near the societal impact as a man saying, "All women are bitches".
Do I agree with the first statement? No, no I don't. But it's not sexism because it's lacking in the years of historical oppression that the second one is. (And when I say "years", I basically mean the whole of human history. This doesn't disappear just because we've made some progress in the last 50 years or so).
Here's what you can take to heart: yes, the patriarchy hurts men, too. (Do not use this as a derailing topic, though!)
The fact that men aren't allowed to cry, are insulted for being "wussy", are expected to be macho and strong, etc etc are the result of the patriarchy and sexism against women, not the result of some widespread societal movement against men. Crying, being emotional, being "weak" are traits associated with women, which is seen as undesirable. The reason men get teased and ostracized for these behaviors are because they are acting like the socially-accepted view of women.
Peeps, that's sexism against women. It hurts men, too. That's why sexism sucks.
Your idea of rape is likely not my idea of rape.
Go back up to Statistic #1 that I posted in one of the previous sections.
When mention of "rape" is made, guys automatically tend to think of a man forcefully holding a woman down, maybe slapping her around, while she screams and tries to get away. Maybe there's a knife or a gun involved. Whatever. They think of things that are indisputably rape.
When women think of rape, they think of this. However, we're more worried about the guy who takes us on a date and then won't let us leave the car until we have sex with him. We're worried about the frat boy at the party that sees we're drunk and takes us up to his bedroom. We're afraid of our boyfriend/husband who feels, as our significant other, that he's entitled to have sex with us whenever he likes, regardless of whether we feel like it or not.
Not all rape is violent. Not all rape is black and white. Get that through your head when going through discussions on rape, otherwise we are not on the same page.
Rape is when sex occurs when one party does not consent.
This is a very broad definition. And, unfortunately, our justice system doesn't handle it very well (please see the conviction rate above). However, reality's reality and if a women/man doesn't consent to sex, even if they don't fight back or file a report, it's rape.
If sex occurs when a person does not have the mental capacity to consent (is drugged, drunk, or asleep/passed out), it's rape.
If a man nags a women into having sex that she initially didn't want...
Why the hell would anyone want to have sex with someone who's so reluctant about it?
Okay, that's a digression, because I can't fathom the mindset of wanting to do the fun bedtime dance with someone who's less than enthused about doing it with you. It's just...what the fuck is the point?
Anyway, if a man nags a women into having sex that she initially didn't want, it is problematic. And, frankly, I think he's a fucking ass for not respecting her refusal to consent. And it's symptomatic of the problem that leads to all-out rape (that a man is entitled to do what he likes with a woman's body, regardless of her feelings).
So while the question of whether that scenario is rape can be debated (and has been debated), it is most definitely troubling and is part of the problem.
In short, broaden your view of rape. Seriously.
Don't ask to be educated.
You'll learn more by sitting back, shutting up, and following the conversation on your own than you will asking the women to see to your personal education.
Because, fact is, it's tiring to educate people all the time. Personally, I typically don't mind too much, but that's my thing. I am not every woman. And jumping into a discussion on rape simply to ask someone to sit down and explain the basics to you when you don't know anybody is presumptuous and irritating.
So don't do it.
If just reading the discussion doesn't cause any Lightbulb Moments, wait and ask a friend who is open to discussing the topic with you.
Because, again, oftentimes, the conversation isn't about you, and by requesting that someone explain it to you, you are making it about you and your lack of understanding. When we could be talking about other, more important things than Basic Rape 101 for newbies.
Again, context. Again, it's not personal. Again, it's not about you.
Damn right we're angry about it!
Discussions on rape can be intimidating for everybody, even men. Oftentimes, there will be hostility displayed on the part of women. There may be some "angry" statements out there, seemingly directed at men.
Can you really blame us? Fact is, we seem angry because we are angry. And you should be, too.
Why? Well, because I have to stop and wonder if you're gonna rape me, and that sucks for both of us.
Because you likely have female friends/relatives/loved ones who are survivors of rape.
Because the ones who aren't survivors are still affected by rape.
Because the douchebags that rape make you look bad.
Because it shouldn't upset you that I refer to rapists as "douchebags".
Because any decent person would get pissed at such a widespread cultural problem that directly affects half of the world's population.
So spare us reproaches about being too hostile or unwelcoming, and join us in our anger. Because if you aren't angry, then there's a problem, and I really don't want to talk to you.
Helpful hint: This? Is specifically a discussion on men in discussions on rape. As such, now it is about you. Feel free to comment in an appropriate manner. Commenting in an inappropriate manner will result in one Angry Feminist.
Some comments are making me *headdesk* repeatedly while lamenting for the state of the world.
So here's something I've always wanted to do up, especially as the topic seems to come up a lot in my LJ (cause, ya know, it's a hot button thing for me).
So here you go.
Context matters!
Not all rape conversations are the same. They exist in a myriad of different contexts and environments. Rape can be a topic in:
1. A discussion about a fictional rape scene.
- Feel free to jump in. It isn't about you. It isn't about anybody in the real world. It's about a fictional depiction of rape, how it might relate to the real world, etc. Don't make it personal because it's not.
2. A discussion among survivors of rape.
- Unless you are a survivor, this is not your discussion. I'm not a rape survivor. This isn't my discussion, either. Have some manners, people.
3. A discussion about how rape affects women
- Odds are, this is not about you. Unless you are a rapist or have been raped, then it's absolutely not about you. Don't make it about you. It's an attempt to focus on an issue that, for much of history, has been swept to the side, excused, or ignored. By jumping in in an attempt to defend men, you're carrying out old, sexist patterns.
This is not to say your participation isn't welcome. However, these conversations are ones that are best that you sit and listen and absorb. Make a supportive statement and sit out. Don't ignore it. For the love of all that is holy, don't pass it by. Because it is something men need to be aware of. But just shut up for a sec, and let women discuss the topic. For too long, we haven't been allowed to do so.
4. A discussion about the rape culture and how it affects men. (This is along the lines of cereta's post)
- This is about you. Except when it isn't.
This can be a difficult subject if you're just dipping your toes into it. It's a discussion on the fact that there is a persistent culture that the patriarchy creates that excuses and condones rape. So, yes, this touches all men. However, these discussions also aren't about all men because there are always the men who were raised non-traditionally that would never ever consider doing this to a woman and they never see any hints of the rape culture around them and they're never put in a situation where they have to deal with it.
And if that's you, I congratulate and am very envious that you live in that world. Now sit down, shut up, listen and absorb while the people who are affected by this culture (men and women) discuss how this happens, the problems with it, possible solutions, etc.
I've said it before in a different context, but it bears repeating: It's not not a problem if it doesn't affect you. You =/= the world.
5. There are many, many more types of discussions that can take place.
The point is, use your discretion. Instead of reading one sentence and getting defensive, stop and read (or listen if we're in the real world) what's already out there. Think on it. Assess whether what you have to add is appropriate for the type of discussion that is going on.
Unless you've been raped, we don't need to hear your life story.
I'll be blunt: no, we don't need to hear about your life as a boy, growing up among other boys who teased you for not being "manly" enough, and how you always sympathized with women and you're really not part of the problem because you live in a special Patriarchy-Free bubble that your parents gave you, and it excludes you to discuss rape because it doesn't recognize that YOU EXIST, which causes more self-esteem issues for you and...
I'll say it again, it's not about you. Your problems are relevant...somewhere else.
My world is not your world.
You may go through your life without ever thinking about rape. And that's fantastic!
I live in a different world, though, and I do have to think about this every day, every time I go out, every time I meet a new guy, every time a friend tells me she's been raped, etc.
The world exists outside you and your perceptions. Just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean it's not there. That's part of your privilege (Oh! I used the "p" word!). You get to ignore/not notice/not be affected by rape culture.
I don't.
We're not blaming you. We're blaming the institution.
I very rarely hear it actually said that "all men are rapists" (except as a strawman by people attempting to derail a feminist discussion on rape). However, there is a glimmer of relevance in that statement, though I'd phrase it more like "women are conditioned to see all men as potential rapists". And, this sucks.
Believe you me, I wish I could go to a party of someone I only barely know without any back-up from my homegirls, get wildly drunk, then rely on Random Guy to get me home. But I can't, because if I did and if anything happened, I would have been "asking for it".
So, yes, it's unfair that I get nervous when I'm the only women in a large crowd of men. It's unfair that, on a date with a man, I have to spend time assessing whether he might "try anything" at the end of the night while the thought of rape never even crosses his mind. And it's very unfair that I have to assume the worst of any guy I might meet for my own protection.
It's not my shit, though. I didn't make this problem. The women talking about it didn't make this problem. The survivors didn't make this problem. And, yes, as an individual man, you may not have made this problem.
However, the patriarchy did. And, whether you like it or not, as a man, you're part of the patriarchy. And it sucks for me more than it does for you.
There's a quote commonly attributed to Margaret Atwood, though I'm failing on my Google-fu and can't seem to find a reference. Regardless:
"Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them,"
If I assume that any man I meet may rape me, the worst that happens to you, as a male, is that your feelings get hurt.
If I don't assume that any man I meet may rape me, I might get killed.
Sorry, folks, I'll keep up the vigilance.
Odds are, you know someone that is a rapist.
Nobody likes to think about this. We often talk about the victims, pointing out how most of us know a rape survivor to draw attention to its prevalence. However, there is a flipside, because for every victim, there is a rapist (sometimes more than one). And...well...we know them, too. And we may think they're an alright guy who would never do something like that.
cereta's post gave me a new site for statistics (with references! *love*) including some that I'd seen a while ago and have been looking for ever since.
Let me throw a couple at you, because numbers are nifty. (sources are attributed on the site linked to above)
1. 8% of men admit committing acts that meet the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Of these men who committed rape, 84% said that what they did was definitely not rape.
- This is part of the problem. Men who commit rape who unequivocally deny what they did is rape. As I've said before, rapists are not the slobbering, shifty-eyed perverts hiding in bushes and kicking puppies. They are regular guys who never learned the rules of consent (or did, but don't care).
Hence my rallying cry: Stop raping people!
2. More than one in five men report "becoming so sexually aroused that they could not stop themselves from having sex, even though the woman did not consent."
- Guys, gives yourselves more credit than this, please.
3. 35% of men report at least some degree of likelihood of raping if they could be assured they wouldn't be caught or punished.
- And this terrifies me.
4. Of those rapes reported to the police (which is 1/3 or less to begin with), only 16% result in prison sentences. Therefore, approximately 5% of the time, a man who rapes ends up in prison, 95% of the time he does not.
Guys (and ladies), it is likely that you a) know a guy who raped someone b) who never received any punishment for it c) that may not recognize what they did was rape d) and who would likely do it again if given the chance.
There is no "reverse sexism".
Take that phrase, wad it into an itty-bitty ball, stomp on it, steamroll it, then burn it in a fire.
Sexism, for most feminist discussions, is discrimination because of gender, backed up with insititutional power. Which men have. And women do not.
Me saying, "All men suck" doesn't have near the societal impact as a man saying, "All women are bitches".
Do I agree with the first statement? No, no I don't. But it's not sexism because it's lacking in the years of historical oppression that the second one is. (And when I say "years", I basically mean the whole of human history. This doesn't disappear just because we've made some progress in the last 50 years or so).
Here's what you can take to heart: yes, the patriarchy hurts men, too. (Do not use this as a derailing topic, though!)
The fact that men aren't allowed to cry, are insulted for being "wussy", are expected to be macho and strong, etc etc are the result of the patriarchy and sexism against women, not the result of some widespread societal movement against men. Crying, being emotional, being "weak" are traits associated with women, which is seen as undesirable. The reason men get teased and ostracized for these behaviors are because they are acting like the socially-accepted view of women.
Peeps, that's sexism against women. It hurts men, too. That's why sexism sucks.
Your idea of rape is likely not my idea of rape.
Go back up to Statistic #1 that I posted in one of the previous sections.
When mention of "rape" is made, guys automatically tend to think of a man forcefully holding a woman down, maybe slapping her around, while she screams and tries to get away. Maybe there's a knife or a gun involved. Whatever. They think of things that are indisputably rape.
When women think of rape, they think of this. However, we're more worried about the guy who takes us on a date and then won't let us leave the car until we have sex with him. We're worried about the frat boy at the party that sees we're drunk and takes us up to his bedroom. We're afraid of our boyfriend/husband who feels, as our significant other, that he's entitled to have sex with us whenever he likes, regardless of whether we feel like it or not.
Not all rape is violent. Not all rape is black and white. Get that through your head when going through discussions on rape, otherwise we are not on the same page.
Rape is when sex occurs when one party does not consent.
This is a very broad definition. And, unfortunately, our justice system doesn't handle it very well (please see the conviction rate above). However, reality's reality and if a women/man doesn't consent to sex, even if they don't fight back or file a report, it's rape.
If sex occurs when a person does not have the mental capacity to consent (is drugged, drunk, or asleep/passed out), it's rape.
If a man nags a women into having sex that she initially didn't want...
Why the hell would anyone want to have sex with someone who's so reluctant about it?
Okay, that's a digression, because I can't fathom the mindset of wanting to do the fun bedtime dance with someone who's less than enthused about doing it with you. It's just...what the fuck is the point?
Anyway, if a man nags a women into having sex that she initially didn't want, it is problematic. And, frankly, I think he's a fucking ass for not respecting her refusal to consent. And it's symptomatic of the problem that leads to all-out rape (that a man is entitled to do what he likes with a woman's body, regardless of her feelings).
So while the question of whether that scenario is rape can be debated (and has been debated), it is most definitely troubling and is part of the problem.
In short, broaden your view of rape. Seriously.
Don't ask to be educated.
You'll learn more by sitting back, shutting up, and following the conversation on your own than you will asking the women to see to your personal education.
Because, fact is, it's tiring to educate people all the time. Personally, I typically don't mind too much, but that's my thing. I am not every woman. And jumping into a discussion on rape simply to ask someone to sit down and explain the basics to you when you don't know anybody is presumptuous and irritating.
So don't do it.
If just reading the discussion doesn't cause any Lightbulb Moments, wait and ask a friend who is open to discussing the topic with you.
Because, again, oftentimes, the conversation isn't about you, and by requesting that someone explain it to you, you are making it about you and your lack of understanding. When we could be talking about other, more important things than Basic Rape 101 for newbies.
Again, context. Again, it's not personal. Again, it's not about you.
Damn right we're angry about it!
Discussions on rape can be intimidating for everybody, even men. Oftentimes, there will be hostility displayed on the part of women. There may be some "angry" statements out there, seemingly directed at men.
Can you really blame us? Fact is, we seem angry because we are angry. And you should be, too.
Why? Well, because I have to stop and wonder if you're gonna rape me, and that sucks for both of us.
Because you likely have female friends/relatives/loved ones who are survivors of rape.
Because the ones who aren't survivors are still affected by rape.
Because the douchebags that rape make you look bad.
Because it shouldn't upset you that I refer to rapists as "douchebags".
Because any decent person would get pissed at such a widespread cultural problem that directly affects half of the world's population.
So spare us reproaches about being too hostile or unwelcoming, and join us in our anger. Because if you aren't angry, then there's a problem, and I really don't want to talk to you.
Helpful hint: This? Is specifically a discussion on men in discussions on rape. As such, now it is about you. Feel free to comment in an appropriate manner. Commenting in an inappropriate manner will result in one Angry Feminist.