Images of Women and Race

[firefly124]

I got into an interesting conversation with a coworker last night on this subject. She's an African-American woman whose sons have all married white women, and somehow it came up that her friends think she should be insulted by this. We've had conversations in the past about some of the culture shock involved in interracial marriages, but this

Comments

[pjvj]

>>>she meant that many black men prefer white women because black women, in general, will not tolerate the masculinist "it's all about me" thing that some guys have.<<<

then

>>>I've pretty consistently gotten the impression that they valued strong women rather than considering them "too masculine" or whatever.<<<

Did you mean they value strong men? Otherwise, I'm confused on the "too masculine" reference. Or is the they in the above quote black men? Sorry for being so dense.

[firefly124]

Oops, the "they" being black women I've been friends with. Even if they weren't particularly strong themselves, they've mostly seemed to value the "takes no shit from anyone" women, rather than putting them down for being too mannish, bitchy, or whatever other insults commonly get slung around.

[pjvj]

Ah, I get it. It was my brain, when I saw the too masculine in quotes it went back up to the prior comment and connected the two erroneously. Bad brain. Bad! lol

[firefly124]

I can see how that would happen. I'm trying to figure out how to edit it and make it clearer.

[elfwreck]

Cultural differences... white women in America (and probably much of Europe) come out of a long history of valuing the soft, skill-less, ignorant, ornamental type of female. While great progress has been made in getting past that, it's still very present in folktales, in tv shows, in jokes, and so on. Even "progressive" men will say things like "my wife will not have to work!" Being able to "protect" women (who were presumably more fragile) from the hardships of life (which included "thought requiring effort") was a mark of higher status.

Black women in America (elsewhere might be very, very different) were never valued for being weak, helpless and ignorant. The slave culture and the later struggles for full freedoms meant that women who were resiliant and resourceful were *always* valued... and being "of peasant stock" or "of the working class" was never a particular insult, because the race took care of that part on its own.

[firefly124]

An important distinction, and I imagine the historical background you mention has a lot to do with this perception.

[phae_talon]

That's a good point. I think that a lot of men are still raised to feel that they are the ones who should be the providers. I know that a lot of men harbour a guilt if they are not always paying for things or not able to be the soul breadwinner.

Even when they know consciously that there is nothing wrong with women working, and that many like to. It is something that I have seen WD struggle with off and on for years.

--Phae

[firefly124]

I think that a lot of men are still raised to feel that they are the ones who should be the providers. I know that a lot of men harbour a guilt if they are not always paying for things or not able to be the soul breadwinner.

Absolutely. For the first few years of our marriage, it was "weird" that I was the one making all the money. I know it bothered Patsfan a lot, because he was brought up in a *very* traditional Italian family. Said family definitely had a lot to say to him on the subject, and my mother made it clear that she thought it would be better for us to end up living in a cardboard box than for me to out-earn my husband. Er, no thanks, Ma. Now that he's the one making the medium bucks, that's supposed to be normal. Once I get my RN, even if he's made pit boss by then, I'll be back to being the big earner. That'll be ... interesting.

[magicofeden]

I don't know if I'm more offended by that idea because I'm a white woman or because I'm an American. I can understand the womans friend wanting to mantain her herritage and all-while that's cool ... it's America, doll. My parentage is 1/2 English and 1/2 about 25 different cultures, and I'm going to say that goes for many many other people out there. We all have our differences and are predisposed to enjoy/appreciate different ideas, but again, if you want to "lock up all the white women because the black men want to rape them"-take notes from M. Night Shyamalan's "The Village"

The other thing that gets me is her idea of Black Men being masculine and "all about me." I'm pretty sure that, while I haven't been involved with every race and religion, I'll say that I've dated men who come from every continent and they ALL think "it's all about me"

[elfwreck]

I don't think the idea is that black men are "all about me," but perhaps that *all* men are that way (or most of them)... and a white woman is more likely to be accepting of that attitude than a black woman.

[firefly124]

I'm a mutt, too. And I'm not suggesting that any of the stereotypes I mentioned are valid, just acknowledging that they exist and pondering where my friend's DIL's idea is coming from

[sahiya]

I think there is most definitely a cultural difference. You saw this in the feminist movement as well, as white suburban middleclass women did the Betty Friedan thing and struggled to get the right to work outside the home. Black women were completely alienated by that, because of course the vast majority of black women had never had the luxury of staying home with their families. In any case, I agree completely with elfwreck about why we have had different expectations for white and black women

[firefly124]

The beauty standards are part of it, too, definitely. I remember reading something years ago about eating disorders and that non-white girls and women seemed less negatively affected by media stereotypes of the "ideal woman" being practically skeletal since most of those stereotypes involved white models and actresses.

a lot more of it has to do with how women see themselves, and each other.

I tend to agree.

[ubiquirk]

I had to think a bit before responding, and I'm sure to still get something very wrong, so forgive.

I had a grad level class in feminism a year ago. What I learned is that there are so many different types of feminism that I'll never get it right for everyone. That said, there is a field of Black Feminism created by African-American women specifically. It stresses strong women and a strong community of women.

As a white woman, I feel a real lack of the second - there's no community to be supportive of other women. Instead, we're told to be bitchy and competitive with each other. It's distressing. Perhaps white women are returning to a need for male approval because it seems like the only type possible (as false as it usually is since it's built on patriarchal ideals).

[firefly124]

I had to think a bit before responding, and I'm sure to still get something very wrong, so forgive.

Of course. And really, how sad is it that we have to be worried about what we say to each other on the subject of claiming our own power?

What I learned is that there are so many different types of feminism that I'll never get it right for everyone.

That's one of the big hurdles. We're so fragmented even when we agree on some of the basics. Sometimes I think it's just another type of divide and conquer, pitting the SAHM's against the executives, the ones who retained or hyphenated their names when they got married against the ones who changed them. The thing is, we do it to ourselves.

As a white woman, I feel a real lack of the second - there's no community to be supportive of other women. Instead, we're told to be bitchy and competitive with each other.Definitely. Even the terms "bitch" and "competitive" are loaded. In general, I tend to take "bitch" as a compliment, because it usually means I'm standing firm about

[ubiquirk]

Oh, yes - you're right. I meant competitive and bitch in the way society uses it. I think it's great to reappropriate bitch as a positive! And I agree that competition should be healthy - if it weren't twisted.

[firefly124]

I meant competitive and bitch in the way society uses it.

I know you did. You just inspired me to veer off on a little tangent. :-)