Season One, Retcons, and Souls. A Ponderment by Fender.

[fenderlove]

My thoughts are all a-flame over a conversation on the IDW Forum about souls in the Buffyverse. Can souls be involuntarily taken away? We saw Buffy get half of hers involuntarily sucked out in S4, and we know that the Mayor voluntarily sold his, but can the average Jane-or-Joe on the street have their soul taken away against their will in the '

Comments

[shapinglight]

There is an interesting discussion on snickfic's LJ about Jossverse worldbuilding that might be relevant.

One person said she thought Joss doesn't really have a coherent mythology. He just changes it all the time to suit the demands of the plot. I agree with that. I think it's bad writing, but there it is.

[fenderlove]

I wholeheartedly agree with that sentiment. I mean, the Master says flat-out in S1 that he and Luke have souls, not "the demon," not "demonic essence," but souls. I can't ignore that, and I can't ignore that while saying the very word soul disgusted Darla later when in S1 she's practically having an orgasm while the Master talks about binding his soul with another vampire's soul. Just because Joss shrugged and said, "Oh, that? Yeah, we didn't really know what we were doing, so ignore it." doesn't cut it with me

[shapinglight]

This same person in that thread said she felt that Joss actually took pride in not paying attention to details like these, and I'm inclined to agree.

It's no wonder Firefly is so crap.

[fenderlove]

Joss does tend to be a little like Ed Wood sans the charm. Part of me can respect him for telling the story that he wants to tell, but mostly I just want to smack him upside the head for not just going with one principle and sticking to it. I mean, I can't even get started on the weirdness that is Spike's chip, not to mention the triple personality of Angel (why is souled Angel instantly filled with remorse when human Liam didn't seem to exactly have a pure, innocent, guilty-conscious-giving soul? Like, I expect that maybe Spike's soul might cause him more grief because of William's innocence, but I just don't know). Also, why are Orbs of Thessulah just hanging about? Are spirit vaults of the undead really in that high of a demand? Why can't I find a scythe in the only pyramid-shaped tomb in all of the dozen-plus cemeteries in Sunnydale?

[thespikeofit]

I'd say Joss is hopeless at creating a mythology to begin with and then can't cope with staying within its confines. Having said that where I have no problem is with stuff that Giles expositioned as to demonology. I think the Watcher's had their own myths to explain things and were not without an agenda. So their emphasis on separating the vampire from the person seemed to be rather convenient as far as helping persuade slayers to think in those terms even if everything we say of Angel/Spike/Harmony showed it was wrong. Not that I think Joss actually planned that out - it's just a fortunate way to make sense of some of the mythology set up from the early seasons.

[fenderlove]

Having said that where I have no problem is with stuff that Giles expositioned as to demonology.True, and beyond that even in our own reality, we only have theories of how life was lived ions ago, so I don't necessarily have a problem with Giles or anyone really being wrong unintentionally within the 'verse either because the information they had was flawed or because someone, like the Watchers, intentionally skewed information in their favor. I guess the problem comes in in that the contradictions are never addressed and sometimes characters flatly deny that the contradictions exist. I suppose my brain just would not leave me alone today about this. I've never thought of the mythology of the show as shown on screen as concrete because it was routinely trounced, so I guess it weirds me out when I see people so hotly pointing out one instance as being proof-positive of something when there are two or three examples of the opposite being true. It's like each scene does not exist in a bubble; there are over twelve seasons total of

[kerry_220]

In general I've never really had a problem with retconning and inconsistent canon. Some of the most entertaining debates I've ever read revolve around people trying to fit some of these inconsistencies into a logical sequence. The slayer's and vampire's ever altering powers, character's ages, vampire physiology, time frames, locations, prophecies, Heaven , Hell etc. Some fans are absolutely BRILLIANT at explaining away what is blatantly a goof.

It is, afterall a illusory universe and the writer can do whatever he pleases. I'd absolutely agree that the fundamentals deserve respect, but in most cases 'tweaking' doesn't strike me as much of a sin.

[fenderlove]

I think everyone's going to have their own perspective of how things work, and you're right, some people are awesome at coming up with ways to make all the pieces fit. I've never really seen the 'verse as all that consistent so I've never really worried all that much about it, but watching others getting offended on behalf of the show's supposed set-in-stone canon has been amusing me greatly. Too bad the thread got locked. Good stuff in there.

My favourite bit of fluctuating vampire power: Angel not being able to open a flimsy security cage door that's got a small padlock on it in Becoming, Part 1 or 2. I love it! XD

[kerry_220]

I've got a dozen favourite inconsistencies, but the prize for me always goes to "Why We Fight". Really? You can sire a vampire in the ad break? :)

The arguments regarding canon that drive me nuts are those which blatantly ignore everything else that the show has put forward. In particular (and I mention it because it is relevant to the IDW thread) is the absolute belief that the only true representation of souled/unsouled is Angel/Angelus. The more I watched, the more obvious it seemed that Angel was the exception not the rule. Spike is different. Anya is different, Human Darla, Connor-ensouled Darla - all different and offering all manor of perspectives. I love that so many pointed out that you can't pin things down that easily. These things made the story all that more interesting.

[fenderlove]

I love that so many pointed out that you can't pin things down that easily. These things made the story all that more interesting.
Exactly. There's a rich tapestry to work from and expand. I love Darla and all her twists and turns. While pregnant, she's adamant that she and Angelus never loved another yet in S1 she says that she still loves Angel even if he doesn't love her (situations like that are the saddest thing in the world, according her) and she makes no distinction between Angel and Angelus (Drusilla, on the other hand, does sometimes make a distinction). I can explain these as she just said what she was feeling at the time or whatever would have the maximum effect, and it also could be explained that the love she talked about in S1 was a perverse kind of love, not the hearts and flowers "true" kind, but sometimes I wonder if the writers remembered her earlier appearances in the show.

[kindredspirit75]

It always pissed me off that, in School Hard, Angel is Spike's sire. Then Joss turns things topsy-turvy with Drusilla siring William, which then becomes canon.

[fenderlove]

Yeah, that bugged me quite a bit. I do like the idea of both of them being his sire at the same time, and I like both ideas separately too. I would have loved-loved-loved to see the scene of William being turned by Angel though.

[kindredspirit75]

I would have loved-loved-loved to see the scene of William being turned by Angel though.

You and me both, sweetie. Yowza! |

[fenderlove]

Well, now I have a plot bunny, and it doesn't want to wait its turn in line. XD

[quinara]

(*pops in via Petzi* Hello

[fenderlove]

I can believe that someone, Giles for example, explaining aspects of the way the world has worked in regards to demons might be some aspects unintentionally wrong due to misinformation. In our own reality, we have barely begun to have a grasp about how life began ions ago, and even what we do "know" are only theories, so Giles saying that all the Old Ones were leaving when the first vampire was created and Illyria contradicting that by saying that vampires and humans were milling about at the same time she was living up the God-King lifestyle, I can understand. Giles has secondary and tertiary sources, but Illyria has a firsthand account. I expect that even most or all vampires in the 'verse don't know where they came from; I think Spike probably only half-believes Illyria because s/he's being so dismissive of vampires. The problem I guess with instances like that there is no clarity as to what is truth, and it seems like it can all just change on a whim when the writer wants it to

[quinara]

Oh yeah, S8 screws up a lot of things... I suppose my position is a lot easier to hold because I'm actively trying to forget S8 existed (and it's getting hazier every day). :D

[fenderlove]

I'm definitely trying to forget S8 and all that it entails, but I still have to blame it for awakening more questions about different aspects of the series that were unclear or left gaps. I hope to one day be able to just forget all about it, like I tried to do with some of the Buffy novelizations. XD