Hmm. No, I didn't get that impression at all. Not a change of history (because it seemed plain that Dean remembered the whole thing) but a plain old memory-wipe. With its attendant complications.
I suspect--and this is just from my own gut, so that and $1.00 will get you a soda from a roadside vending machine--that this person holds a deep-seated hatred of Lisa and wants to see her eliminated from the time line, along with any possibility that she will return.
But this person is the only person I've seen to interpret events as having been changed in history, rather than a plain memory-wipe (however far reaching that wipe had to be).
Not Blacklid or Tahirire but i didn't get that impression at all. Why to wipe her memory if he planned to change the whole history of their relationship with Dean? It's one or another right? And Dean clearly knew who they are (hence all the angst) otherwise there's no point in Dean's sacrifice.
Thank you! Yes, the whole changing history theory is problematic in many more regards, I think, than the memory wipe. The way the person explained Dean still remembering, was because Sam and Dean still remembered the alternate timeline in the Titanic episode. Still, that was a different scenario.
Also, it seemed to me that Lisa had some sort of subconscious recollection of Dean, like she was supposed to know him, and was disappointed when she didn't. That wouldn't really work with a "change of history."
I'm not remembering well the facts of the show now but i thought they remembered that timeline because they were supposed to. If Cas would change history for Dean-Lisa to never happen they wouldn't suppose to remember anything otherwise there's no point in changing. I did have the same feeling about Lisa in the end. that she was struggling to remember Dean but couldn't. It actually could be a good fic going into AU where she would be able to fight it and remember him and welcome him back. I'd love to read something like that.
Soooo . . . no history change or alteration to the timeline.
I'd have to watch it again, but wasn't it Cas who had Balth go back and unsink the Titanic? It seems at that point that Cas is not adverse to changing history to affect the present.
And of course now that I think about it, it's possible that Balthazar drew attention to himself the way he did in order to clue the Winchesters in so that things would eventually be corrected and returned to the original history of events.
I do think Sera did an admirable job of removing Lisa and Ben with the utmost angst to Dean without killing them off. Kudos to her.
Well, time is fluid. Changing the future does change history, but altering the past does it in a different way than altering the future would do. Maybe I'm being too esoteric
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I think I'm a much more linear thinker than you are. :-) 'Tis why I asked. I'm looking at the scene in a more linear fashion. We were not presented with any indication that history had been changed, so it never occurred to me as a possibility. I was wondering if someone with a less constantly linear approach, who thinks farther outside the box, saw the "obvious" explanation of a history change.
I got to thinking about the logic of MHWGO, too, and wondered what Cas's logic was.
I can appreciate the boys learning balance (though Dean is still all about the "saving people" portion of the mission *smishes him*), but I think what bothered me about all of that in MHWGO is Cas's change in attitude toward humans. Back in "Great Pumpkin," he admired humans as God's handiwork and masterpiece. Now, with the Titanic thing, they seem to be a means to an end, unless he has a personal relationship with them.
I do not believe that Cas changed the past. For one thing, in the Titanic episode we saw how drastic altering the past could end up being - altering DEAN'S past would be nothing short of suicidal on Cas's part - if Dean didn't grow up to be the man who went to Hell and needed to be saved, Cas would have never been set on HIS path, either. No ... I think it was just memories. A good example is, have you ever seen the Butterfly Effect? Ashton Kutcher's character always remembered every timeline (just like how Sam and Dean remember all of THEIR A/U timelines they've been in, like the Titanic Ep and the djinn world and the future), but the characters that he loved and was trying to save never did, they only remembered the one they were living in at that moment.
Exactly my point! If Dean had never met Lisa, that could potentially change or eliminate in any way, shape, or form how Dean's original weekend with Lisa affected where he was at any given time due to his being there at that particular time in that particular space.
I have not seen The Butterfly Effect, but I think I get the gist of the movie. And it really rather makes me ponder exactly what these other AUs have been to the boys. The only one that was truly an AU as I see it was the Titanic ep. WIaWSNB was more of a dream; it was all in Dean's head. "The End" was, I think, most likely a machination of Zach's. Or possibly a "potential" future. "Always in motion is the future," as Yoda says. The "real" world in TFM was an actual alternate reality (or angel invention), like criss-crossing wormholes. And for the Titanic AU, I tend to see their retention of the memories as more a knowledge of "what might have been," rather than actually carrying differing lifetimes of memories. (Growing up in a Mustang rather than the Impala,
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You might be interested in bellatemple's look at the situation from Lisa's POV, here:
http://bellatemple.livejournal.com/602341.html
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I also wrote something just a few days after the ep aired.
Just One Year
I suspect--and this is just from my own gut, so that and $1.00 will get you a soda from a roadside vending machine--that this person holds a deep-seated hatred of Lisa and wants to see her eliminated from the time line, along with any possibility that she will return.
But this person is the only person I've seen to interpret events as having been changed in history, rather than a plain memory-wipe (however far reaching that wipe had to be).
Thank you for your in-put. :-)
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Also, it seemed to me that Lisa had some sort of subconscious recollection of Dean, like she was supposed to know him, and was disappointed when she didn't. That wouldn't really work with a "change of history."
Thanks for your in-put. :-)
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I did have the same feeling about Lisa in the end. that she was struggling to remember Dean but couldn't. It actually could be a good fic going into AU where she would be able to fight it and remember him and welcome him back. I'd love to read something like that.
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I'd have to watch it again, but wasn't it Cas who had Balth go back and unsink the Titanic? It seems at that point that Cas is not adverse to changing history to affect the present.
And of course now that I think about it, it's possible that Balthazar drew attention to himself the way he did in order to clue the Winchesters in so that things would eventually be corrected and returned to the original history of events.
I do think Sera did an admirable job of removing Lisa and Ben with the utmost angst to Dean without killing them off. Kudos to her.
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I got to thinking about the logic of MHWGO, too, and wondered what Cas's logic was.
I can appreciate the boys learning balance (though Dean is still all about the "saving people" portion of the mission *smishes him*), but I think what bothered me about all of that in MHWGO is Cas's change in attitude toward humans. Back in "Great Pumpkin," he admired humans as God's handiwork and masterpiece. Now, with the Titanic thing, they seem to be a means to an end, unless he has a personal relationship with them.
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I do not believe that Cas changed the past. For one thing, in the Titanic episode we saw how drastic altering the past could end up being - altering DEAN'S past would be nothing short of suicidal on Cas's part - if Dean didn't grow up to be the man who went to Hell and needed to be saved, Cas would have never been set on HIS path, either. No ... I think it was just memories. A good example is, have you ever seen the Butterfly Effect? Ashton Kutcher's character always remembered every timeline (just like how Sam and Dean remember all of THEIR A/U timelines they've been in, like the Titanic Ep and the djinn world and the future), but the characters that he loved and was trying to save never did, they only remembered the one they were living in at that moment.
:)
Psst, also, it's 'Let it bleed'.
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I have not seen The Butterfly Effect, but I think I get the gist of the movie. And it really rather makes me ponder exactly what these other AUs have been to the boys. The only one that was truly an AU as I see it was the Titanic ep. WIaWSNB was more of a dream; it was all in Dean's head. "The End" was, I think, most likely a machination of Zach's. Or possibly a "potential" future. "Always in motion is the future," as Yoda says. The "real" world in TFM was an actual alternate reality (or angel invention), like criss-crossing wormholes. And for the Titanic AU, I tend to see their retention of the memories as more a knowledge of "what might have been," rather than actually carrying differing lifetimes of memories. (Growing up in a Mustang rather than the Impala, ( ... )
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