C. HOLY SHIT I LOVE THIS. I mean, how horrible. Horrible, horrible. (But so cool.)
D. Probable.
E. Probable.
F. I'd care about authorial intent if there were AN author. Having a rotating crew that includes people who have apparently never seen the show makes this less of an issue.
In summary, I thinks it's a combination of D and E. Maybe 40/60. But what fascinating hypotheses!
I vacillate about whether the show (or at least some of its writers) has or hasn't specific intention, and I'm equally unsure whether its stance on Dean is as clear cut as it appears (or at least as the majority of its viewers seem to interpret the character). I am often troubled by these questions. I'm inclined to agree with your summary, though. Thanks very much for indulging me :)
Dean has always made inappropriate remarks at times when he feels guilty, out of control in a situation, or uncomfortable. His coping mechanism has always been to be a jerk. m :)
Indeed. That's why I included the possibility. Once upon a time it was very clear that's what he was doing. I don't find post-purgatory Dean so transparent, though.
I like all these ideas. Personally, I took it as a throw away line and continuity error. Though it was suggested on my discussion thread that because Cas was about it appear they made Dean say something as a reminder that he is straight (it was worded better than that, but that was the idea).
I love that Dean could possibly be soulless, but it would mean there's another layer of what soulless means. To Sam it meant being cold and calculating, to the general public it makes them go nuts and kill people. If Dean is soulless then it's another incarnation of that. But boy, the idea is interesting.
But mostly - throw away. A comment that the place needs cleaning (and I can't remember…does Dean know that Sam had attempted to clean up.
Post Purgatory Dean is an interesting thing. He's not quite been the same since. But I thought that was essentially Carver's version of Dean. Same way he seems to have a different view of Sam (though the last couple of eps seem to be going back to more of the old Sam. Not sure, yet).
> they made Dean say something as a reminder that he is straight
Ah, I hadn't thought of that one but, now that you mention it, it's entirely possible.
I'm not too hopeful they're going to go the soulless route but I do think it would be interesting.
> does Dean know that Sam had attempted to clean up.
I assumed he could see that an attempt had been made.
In 8.1 when Sam said "I'm still the same person" and Dean replied "I'm not" I took that as Carver's mission statement, that he was changing the character. In any case, for the sake of my sanity, I have to think of pre and post purgatory Dean as two different characters. Sam, I think, is still susceptible to being thought of as the same person, if only his pov were clearly dramatized.
A, obviously. Dean and Sam are both terrible people who do terrible things on a daily basis. And the Carver era has been all about exploring Dean's inner darkness so far, and it doesn't look like that will stop this season either. At least I hope not. :)
Also a bit of D. I thought it was Dean's way of saying to Sam "You're still you and I'm still me and I love you and I'm so glad that we're together again. We can get through this."
A lot of people seem to like dark Dean but I always felt that was the more overt side of him and not really in need of exploration. Rather, in the original series, it was his inner light that he tried to keep under a bushel and that was worthy of further examination (thus, the serial, of course :P ) Sadly, from my point of view, the show no longer seems interested in that side of Dean at all :(
THIS OMG THIS! I am absolutely fascinated with the fact that Dean creates a bad boy "I'm a tough hunter grrrr" persona when deep down he's the guy who wears his heart on his sleeve. Without that persona to act like a barrier, he falls apart. He hides behind something people will think is cool so that they won't see the wounds underneath, what he thinks is so "ugly" about himself.
This is why I love fic about this topic. There was a short fic once where Dean was under a curse that made him appear to others the way he pictured himself. I think he went to the roadhouse and Ellen saw him. There was something like to himself, Dean was grotesque but to Ellen he almost looked like a fragile little boy.
And that's just it, isn't it? Dean is that 4 year old little boy wondering where Mommy went, only dressed up in a grown man's body. One viewing of WIAWSNB or the scenes with Mary in DSOTM prove that.
I love those episodes. That's the way I always saw Dean, and I believe that's how Kripke saw him, too. It was the side of Dean I always found most interesting. I fear it's not a side of Dean Carver cares for, though :(
I'd like it to be possible but I'm not really hopeful that they're going that route. If they were, though, Crowley maybe can't tell because Dean's been soulless or close to soulless one way or another for so long it's hard to tell the difference, maybe?
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A. Impossible. Dean is Show's fair haired child.
B. Too subtle. But fascinating.
C. HOLY SHIT I LOVE THIS. I mean, how horrible. Horrible, horrible. (But so cool.)
D. Probable.
E. Probable.
F. I'd care about authorial intent if there were AN author. Having a rotating crew that includes people who have apparently never seen the show makes this less of an issue.
In summary, I thinks it's a combination of D and E. Maybe 40/60. But what fascinating hypotheses!
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I love that Dean could possibly be soulless, but it would mean there's another layer of what soulless means. To Sam it meant being cold and calculating, to the general public it makes them go nuts and kill people. If Dean is soulless then it's another incarnation of that. But boy, the idea is interesting.
But mostly - throw away. A comment that the place needs cleaning (and I can't remember…does Dean know that Sam had attempted to clean up.
Post Purgatory Dean is an interesting thing. He's not quite been the same since. But I thought that was essentially Carver's version of Dean. Same way he seems to have a different view of Sam (though the last couple of eps seem to be going back to more of the old Sam. Not sure, yet).
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Ah, I hadn't thought of that one but, now that you mention it, it's entirely possible.
I'm not too hopeful they're going to go the soulless route but I do think it would be interesting.
> does Dean know that Sam had attempted to clean up.
I assumed he could see that an attempt had been made.
In 8.1 when Sam said "I'm still the same person" and Dean replied "I'm not" I took that as Carver's mission statement, that he was changing the character. In any case, for the sake of my sanity, I have to think of pre and post purgatory Dean as two different characters. Sam, I think, is still susceptible to being thought of as the same person, if only his pov were clearly dramatized.
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Also a bit of D. I thought it was Dean's way of saying to Sam "You're still you and I'm still me and I love you and I'm so glad that we're together again. We can get through this."
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This is why I love fic about this topic. There was a short fic once where Dean was under a curse that made him appear to others the way he pictured himself. I think he went to the roadhouse and Ellen saw him. There was something like to himself, Dean was grotesque but to Ellen he almost looked like a fragile little boy.
And that's just it, isn't it? Dean is that 4 year old little boy wondering where Mommy went, only dressed up in a grown man's body. One viewing of WIAWSNB or the scenes with Mary in DSOTM prove that.
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C - HOLY CRAP! That is entirely possible!!! But why wouldn't Crowley have spotted that on him as he did Jenna?!? *thinky thoughts*
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