(Untitled)

[errantimpulses]

So this is my 4am random rant on women in movies and comics...I'm not responsible for spelling after 4am....

Long post! Contains vague spoilers for various movies, books, and comics. X-men? Harry Potter? Batman? Maybe more. Nothing too recent though....Spoilers if you've been under a rock....

Comments

[zing_och]

This is really depressing. It's also really true.

The outcrying of "Mary-Sue!" whenever a strong female arrives is, unfortunately, made by females as well.

That drives me crazy in fandom, too. Every original female character is suspected of being a Mary Sue, but the male ones aren't - at least it's not as automatic as with the women. And even in the woman-dominated corners of fandom I hang out in I've seen countless instances of women putting down strong women characters in books, in movies, in comics with "She's such a Sue."

[errantimpulses]

Yeah. I mean, in situations where it's really obvious, like in fanfiction, sometimes I do the eyerolling, because you already have a cast of characters, why are you adding one? I wonder if I would do that with a boy, too, but I don't know many boys who write fanfiction.

....but when it's an established canon character, I get SO annoyed at the "Sue"-calling. Sure that girl is a Mary-Sue, but all the boys are the male equivalents. Let's get on everyone's case or no one's! (I prefer no one's.)

[vejiicakes]

... well, I've got nothing to add to this. You've pretty well summed up every thought I could ever have about this situation, EVER. Including the thought that, while the sentiment behind the studio head's statement is disgusting, it was just STUPID of him to actually articulate it (I mean, hell, he might've just not approved movie ideas with female leads, and in all probability, no one would have called him on it, but he SAID it and that was dumb O_o)

And sort of tangential to the main thrust of the post, but I really liked Elizabeth in the first PotC, and I found her still likable and inspiring in the third PotC (whereas I'm going to pretend PotC2 just never happened) but duuuude, I stand by my stance that she'd pretty much attained outright Suestrementality by PotC3 XD Eeeeverybody wants to sex her? Pirate King? SRSLY? And yet, of course, it didn't until recently occur to me to even think of Will as a Gary-Stu, and forget Liz being Pirate King--Will is basically the PotC story's Jesus figure XD

[errantimpulses]

Hahah Elizabeth was, like, one of five females in the film! With hundreds of men, and only a handful of females, it makes sense everyone would want to sex her up. Those frustrated pirates! :-D But seriously, yeah. I can understand wanting to call Elizabeth a Mary-Sue, but then we also need to call the male characters on what they really are.

[vejiicakes]

Iiiii don't know about that, I call desirability overkill by the writers. In the same way that, say, half the Fushigi Yuugi cast wanted/tried to sex up Miaka, it seemed much less a reflection on the men doing the desiring in their usual sausage-fest environment than on the woman in question being OMG speshul.

I really do suspect that were women more commonly found in the PotC-'verse, the writers would still have had most of the male characters, ancillary or otherwise, clamoring after Liz. (Ana Maria for instance, lovely as she was, never saw any such attention, and in terms of approachability Elizabeth is just as prickly as Ana ever was. Maybe more

[errantimpulses]

Hahah I was partially teasing with that comment. But the whole "everyone wants to sex Elizabeth" vibe may have been less evident if, like, one of the crew members not wanting to sex her (like Mr. Gibbs) had a girlfriend to contrast the Liz-sexing-want

[jengou]

This is really, really sad, and I think it partly explains why:

- slash is so popular
- young girls look up to Paris Hilton and Britney Spears
- girls wish they were boys
- there is lack of girl bands
- why it's nearly always the girls that get voted out on X-factor (what what?)

I find it really sad how girls aren't supposed to have personality, cos then they're annoying. But when they're really nice girls, people say they're boring.

For whatever it's worth, a lot of the people I enjoy talking to and spending time with in real life are girls ♥ Maybe the loveliness of women is difficult to express! E.g. I love baking with girls :D

[jengou]

Oooh, two more things!

Elizabeth did kind of grate on my nerves, but Will, aagggh, I wanted him away from my face! Elizabeth got cooler towards the end. I don't get why people call her a slut. She kissed, what, 4 people in her entire life? :O

STRANGERS IN PARADISE!! So much love. I love Katchoo, but, oh, I love Francis's weaknesses too.

[errantimpulses]

Haha, there are a lot of things where I went, "why the hell would she do that!?" for elizabeth, but I did the same for Will a couple times, so I figure it evens out! And everyone calls everyone sluts! I don't understand that! People call Halle a slut, cause she hit on Mello. Who wouldn't have? And Misa and Takada are sluts, even though Misa won't kiss someone who's not her boyfriend (not that I would consider Misa and Takada strong female characters, but the whole, "I dislike this girl, so I'm calling her a slut, regardless of whether or not she is one!" drives me nuts.)

I love Fancine, too! But she's less of the tough-girl that I wanted to talk about. I liked most the girls in Strangers in Paradise, even Darcy and Casey to some extent! It's honestly probably not the plot I would have liked to read most, but the characters were kick ass, and that's good enough for me. :-)

[errantimpulses]

Yeah, whenever I get asked why slash is so popular, I give my honest, twofold opinion. Which is a) much like most guys being encouraged to like when girls make out, when two hot guys are making out, it's doubly hot! Just like how it is for guys watching two girls! Of course, to understand this, people need to understand that women are also capable of lust that is separate from love, which a lot of people can't, I don't think, and therefore they don't get slash. And b) women might like to watch het porn too, if it wasn't so damn degrading to women. However, if you get rid of the women, you can't degrade women (of course, I hate when the uke is all weak and gets taken advantage of.....it still implies that the penetrator gets to control the...penetratee? XD But I object less to it when it's a guy

*unlurks* *unsure how I actually ended up linked to this post but glad for it*

[gothicwhite]

I seriously burst into applause at the end of this thread.

Re: *unlurks* *unsure how I actually ended up linked to this post but glad for it*

[errantimpulses]

Wow, glad to hear it!

Re: *unlurks* *unsure how I actually ended up linked to this post but glad for it*

[gothicwhite]

I realize I'm probably bugging you, but . . . this has totally shifted my world view, actually. The points you made about female villains / male villains. It's made me start trying to get past gender and look at actions. Which makes villains much cooler. Eve, for example, in Angel. It made me realize I respect her as a ruthless smirky evil bitch . . . up until the point it's revealed she only did it for Lindsey. That just made me think she was stupid and skanky. If you're going to be evil, be evil for you. Don't be Harley Quinn! Be Lilah Morgan.

Re: *unlurks* *unsure how I actually ended up linked to this post but glad for it*

[errantimpulses]

Oh no. I haven't posted here in forever, so I'm glad to see it's getting some activity