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[errantimpulses]

So this is my 4am random rant on women in movies and comics...I'm not responsible for spelling after 4am....

Long post! Contains vague spoilers for various movies, books, and comics. X-men? Harry Potter? Batman? Maybe more. Nothing too recent though....Spoilers if you've been under a rock....

Comments

[vejiicakes]

... well, I've got nothing to add to this. You've pretty well summed up every thought I could ever have about this situation, EVER. Including the thought that, while the sentiment behind the studio head's statement is disgusting, it was just STUPID of him to actually articulate it (I mean, hell, he might've just not approved movie ideas with female leads, and in all probability, no one would have called him on it, but he SAID it and that was dumb O_o)

And sort of tangential to the main thrust of the post, but I really liked Elizabeth in the first PotC, and I found her still likable and inspiring in the third PotC (whereas I'm going to pretend PotC2 just never happened) but duuuude, I stand by my stance that she'd pretty much attained outright Suestrementality by PotC3 XD Eeeeverybody wants to sex her? Pirate King? SRSLY? And yet, of course, it didn't until recently occur to me to even think of Will as a Gary-Stu, and forget Liz being Pirate King--Will is basically the PotC story's Jesus figure XD

These days, I think a lot of the criteria for Sue-ness is determined just as much by how much events or characters in a story center around her, as by how evident it is that she's a fictional extension of the writer which, being written by two men, I'm not sure if the latter still applies in her case. And I think I've only seen the former rule being brought heavily into play when the female in question isn't a main character, where events would be expected to center around the lead anyway, so there's always the possibility that if more strong women were made leads in stories and it stopped being such an anomaly to people, there'd be less calls of "SUE!!" I really do think there's something to the idea that women as strong leads are even today still kind of unexpected and counterintuitive to our culture, so instead of accepting them, we process them as oddities and call them on it. Sad, that -_-

[errantimpulses]

Hahah Elizabeth was, like, one of five females in the film! With hundreds of men, and only a handful of females, it makes sense everyone would want to sex her up. Those frustrated pirates! :-D But seriously, yeah. I can understand wanting to call Elizabeth a Mary-Sue, but then we also need to call the male characters on what they really are.

[vejiicakes]

Iiiii don't know about that, I call desirability overkill by the writers. In the same way that, say, half the Fushigi Yuugi cast wanted/tried to sex up Miaka, it seemed much less a reflection on the men doing the desiring in their usual sausage-fest environment than on the woman in question being OMG speshul.

I really do suspect that were women more commonly found in the PotC-'verse, the writers would still have had most of the male characters, ancillary or otherwise, clamoring after Liz. (Ana Maria for instance, lovely as she was, never saw any such attention, and in terms of approachability Elizabeth is just as prickly as Ana ever was. Maybe more.)

What I think worked in Liz's favor in terms of NOT being a Sue is that she at least sort of had to pay some of her faults by the last movie--not instantly being forgiven by Will, Jack kind of calls her on it, etc. Come to think of it, character flaws are a BIG determining factor in Sue/Stu-dom--and they're only flaws if they're seen as negative traits, either in-universe or by the audience. I think that's probably a good way to tell. Yay ramble.

[errantimpulses]

Hahah I was partially teasing with that comment. But the whole "everyone wants to sex Elizabeth" vibe may have been less evident if, like, one of the crew members not wanting to sex her (like Mr. Gibbs) had a girlfriend to contrast the Liz-sexing-want.

I was SO disappointed that Ana Maria wasn't in the second movie! (and more than mildly disturbed that they killed off all their non-white crew members in the first half hour....wtf PotC???) Ana Maria is the kind of character I would want to watch more of! But instead they go with Elizabeth, who's cool and all, but much less, "fuck you!" than Ana Maria. ....but that makes Ana Maria a bitch, and therefore we shouldn't want to see her. :-/

See, her not being forgiven by Will still kind of pricks me, because she made much less a deal out of him hiding things and being mad at her for hiding things than she should have ( at least, that's what my memory tells me. I need to rewatch it). Like, (again, going on memory) he gives her her own line back, "I didn't think you could handle it" but she doesn't actually counter with, "you goddamn hypocrite!" like she should. He gets mad at her for doing something, but he does the same thing, but thinks that, "oh, so you and I are even with the lying to each other" should cover it, but doesn't realize, no, he still has yet to feel the pain of being unforgiven. But bleh, that could just be me disliking Will and Elizabeth as a couple.

[vejiicakes]

Nuts to that, I wanted to see more of Ana Maria being all "fuck you!" T__T Actually, I can't really make sense of her not being in the second or third movies. I'm sure the idea was that she'd prefer a boat of her own, but she seemed.. so good to go on staying with the Black Pearl by the end of the first movie. And maybe a liiiittle sweet on Jack, but no woman isn't sweet on Jack, but I didn't need them to hook up or anything. (Hmm.. that could be grounds for Gary-Studom, if he weren't Johnny Depp, Sex on Legs, Fashioned By God From A Solid Block Of Sex anyway.)

Honestly, I really rather liked the way Liz and Will finally got, I think, on more or less even ground before really hooking up in the third movie. In that it was after they'd both done some pretty fucked up things, and realized that no, they weren't going to be the perfect fairy tale couple that they seemed to be in the first movie, and... still wanted to be with each other in spite of it. That and I'm a sucker for epically romantic music blaring over tender forehead nuzzlies on the beach. A SUCKER.

[errantimpulses]

Hahah, Will was totally a Stu (haha almost wrote Sue) because every female role in the third film wanted to sex him! ...all of two of them! XD

I would have liked Jack/Ana or Jack/Tia, because both of them seemed like strong ladies, and their relationship with him would have been fun to watch! :-) but better left offscreen, I guess.

Hahah, I just wish Elizabeth would have kept her Pirate-King title. Why is she waiting for him at home, when he's allowed on water, and she's the pirate king?! She seemed to be a good pirate, too! :-)

[vejiicakes]

Naaah, after the second film, Tia didn't even look twice at Will. (I am, of course, being facetious, though it occurs to me that that's also totally true. Must've been because her Davey-squiddy-face-shnookums was so close.)

Re: Jack/Tia, I maintain that Tia totally at least wanted to tap that, if not actually did--Jack said that he 'knew' her, to which she responded "not as well as she'd hoped"--even if they were just being coy and pretending to use innuendo about something more abstract like.. her being the sea and him sailing it for a while. Nevermind that. Totally tapping that. Sexually. *likes her world of denial very much, why do you ask*

And pff, I don't know why either Jack or Liz are pretending they won't see each other for ten years. You know she was all, "WHERE'S MY SHIP?!" the minute he took off. (Hey, you give me a hubby as pretty as Will and try to stop me from going off and getting my conjugal visits myself XD)

[errantimpulses]

Hahah, I meant I was just confused why she was waiting for him on land every ....shit, I can't remember the number... seven years? When she could just go sailing and be all, "hey, baby!"

Jack/Tia are totally canon. That whole, "four of you tried to kill me" (Jack, Elizabeth, Barbosa, and Tia) and her, "don't say you didn't enjoy it at the time" and Jack being all, "heheh" = Jack+Tia + kinky S&M in the bedroom. XD TRUEFACT. Plus the whole knowing thing, Jack was all jealous of Will over Tia, and totally did know Tia. You know. Biblically. :-)

[vejiicakes]

*laughs* That's what I'm saying! There's no WAY she was even waiting for him every (it was ten) years. That woman totally wrangled up a ship and a crew through her Pirate King connections and... well, like I said, conjugal visit and some such XP (I can dream. I can, and I will.)

Tia could've tried to kill Jack in bed or on the sea and you know he had fun either way. .. actually, running this through in my head, I'm not sure which way we're supposed to take that. It occurs to me that both are pretty spiffy. But one is knowing in the biblical sense, and one is kind of adventurous and free-spirited with the sailing and the high seas and the Black Pearl and the invigorating fighting for his li- WHY ISN'T THIS FIC YET? >_< Sometimes I like to read that scene as Jack being possessive protective of Will because he knows Tia would do some damage if she got her claws into the boy...

[errantimpulses]

Jack/Tia/Will threesome!? :-D I mean, you make some very good points!