The problem with 'As You Were'.

[elisi]

Thanks to AOQ's reviews, I've been spending yet more time thinking about AYW. Because One Bit Shy (whom I usually agree with at least 95%), had a completely different take: Riley was Prince Charming, giving Buffy a wonderful boost and helping her enormously. Which kinda threw me, as you can expect. So I thought and pondered, and this is what I came

Comments

[dlgood]

In my general readings of fandom, Riley tends to be the character that gets ripped the most. He's viewed an interloper, both in the series and in various Buffy/(Insert Fave Here) shipper circles. He's a military

[elisi]

First of all, thank you for such a nice and sensible post. I don't know what they put in the water coolers around here, but apparently it makes people go crazy when they hear Riley's name...

Can you at least consider this version plausible? It's obvious, but I think that at least it's fair - and not dependent upon anyone being dumb or a villain.
Now see this was pretty much what One Bit Shy came up with, and I like it very much. I really have no problem with Riley and rather liked him on the show (never missed him after he left, mind you, but he was pleasant enough).

The problem comes when we go back to the The Doctor thing. Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.

In the first instance your explanation is fine, except Riley really should have thought a little more about the absurdity of Spike dealing with foreign governments etc.

In the second he's still not bad as such, just trying to nudge things in the right direction for Buffy.

She broke up with Angel

[dlgood]

The problem comes when we go back to the The Doctor thing. Taking as given that it isn't Spike, either Riley gets set up by the real Doctor (or similar), or he lies.

I don't really see that as a problem. I'm willing to believe what Buffy believed - that he might lack the demeanor to do that job competently, but that he would do it. I'm certainly willing to believe that Spike's complicit with the "Real Doctor" even if unwittingly, and that's good enough for government work story purposes. If Riley goes offstage and traces Spike's connection to 'The Real Doctor' and solves that problem... then we haven't really lost anything

[elisi]

I'm certainly willing to believe that Spike's complicit with the "Real Doctor" even if unwittingly, and that's good enough for government work story purposes.
Well I guess we can agree on that. I'm not trying to make Spike out to be all hard done by btw, and turn Riley into *the bad guy*. Spike was obviously looking after the eggs, but I doubt that he even bothered to find out what they were. Someone not naming himself offers Spike money for stashing something - sure! Spike ain't going to complain - easy money with a minimum of fuss!

Good thoughts about Buffy's breakup, nothing much to add there. Her relationship with Spike was very damaging to both of them and it was good that it ended. I guess my problem is that they used Riley as the catalyst - because I don't think he's earened the right to suddenly be Mr Great. It ignores the circumstances around his departure, and that just sits badly with me. But that's my problem, I know!

[elisi]

Still makes a heck of a lot more sense to me than the superficial crap that was the episode.
Oh! That's from spikewriter's Magic Box series! (It might have been a general theory that she incorporated, but it works very nicely.)

I'd actually liked Riley just before he left in season 5, because he had some dimension and humanity, finally. Petrie blew it all away.
Yeah, it becomes a lot harder liking him after AYW. I try, because I don't think he's a bad guy, but... *sigh*

Anyway, thanks for stopping by. :)

[elisi]

I'm not surprised - it's very neat. :)

[dlgood]

Riley was an attempt to run the heck away from what she was by pretending she could be wife, mommmy, and co-golden retriever owner and be something other than a Slayer.

Do you think there is something wrong with a woman trying both be wife and mother and to have a career? If Buffy values both aspects, does that mean she's defective. Because it sort of sounds like that's what you're saying.

[aycheb]

I'm a litttle puzzled by the idea that Riley represented a normal life instead of a Slaying one. Buffy's relationship with him occured in the post-high school period when complaints about her destiny had more or less ceased. She only started dating Riley after discovering his special agent gig made it possible to bring him on board with all her slaying duties and bring him on baord she did. Doubts about the effects of Slaying on her humanity began to surface after her mum died but that was some time after Riley had left. Earlier in season five she's enthusiatically seeking out ways to enhance her Slayer skills and volunteering for new more advanced training schemes with Giles. If anything I'd say Riley represented a chance to combine destiny and normality.

[shapinglight]

I wish I could think of something intelligent to say about this episode but since it's about the least intelligent episode of the whole show, maybe it doesn't matter too much.

Maybe we're supposed to take the lack of irony in Riley's perfect life and perfect wife as ironic in itself, who knows?

Also, it's not the only poor episode Petrie wrote. I don't think much of Bad Girls either.

[elisi]

but since it's about the least intelligent episode of the whole show, maybe it doesn't matter too much.
Hehehehe. I'm busily trying to purge it from my mind!

I don't think much of Bad Girls either.
He wrote Bad Girls?

[shapinglight]

Yes. And didn't he co-write End of Days? I'd rather think he was responsible for that silly Guardian person than Jane E.

[elisi]

Having re-watched 'Bad Girls' last night, I have to say I rather like it (except for Balthazar of course).

And you're probably right about The Guardian... ah well. Can't be helped now.