In which I hate on my Spike/Angel essay and beg for your help AGAIN

[eilowyn]

There comes a point in an essayist's life when they hit a brick wall and decide throwing the laptop down the garbage chute is a valid response to that wall. I am at that point, the same point I was at last Saturday when I asked for the Angel love. The Angel love post helped me have some form of respect for the guy, but it didn't help me write

Comments

[findmeneverland]

Where's the problem, babe?? What I see here is fantastic, very well thought out writing with a solid layout for the rest of the essay. I know it can be frustrating, but save the freak-outs until the whole thing is done--of course you're not gonna be happy with it until then. You're on the right track! I wish I could be more helpful but my brain is fried as well. I'll let you know if I think of anything.

[pocochina]

dude, you have all this done with a week to go? you are taking names. I'm impressed. but BLAH BLAH if you want to kick some ideas around:

Mmm, I think Becoming is pivotal to all of this, perhaps as much as Amends. I actually don't know a whole lot about Protestant dogma, so I don't know if this helps the contrast, but I think there's something to be said about Angel and original sin - the sins from before the soul are about decisions made when he couldn't have known right from wrong. (I mean, show me your world, that's as explicit a a trip to the tree of knowledge as you could ask for.) Doing, versus being. I suppose you could look at the curse as a kind of baptism, even - he didn't choose it, couldn't possibly have chosen it as children in the Catholic tradition are baptized in infancy.

Are you including AtS? To Shanshu in LA and Judgment might be good to check out, as it deals with the promise of a better future after all the hardships. I think Judgment also has him visiting Faith and projecting all over commiserating with her, so

[eilowyn]

AtS is included. I'll keep his projection pep talk to Faith in mind when going through my info sources. And I may mention the baptismal thing - getting a soul cursed on you and then not doing anything with it for 100 years is a lot like being baptized at infancy and expecting that to get you into heaven.

It's just overwhelming to try to get the show to say what I want it to say when it's never meant to say anything on the subject; this is all my interpretation aka I'm pulling this out of my ass. I do expect myself to inadvertently play Fox News and accidentally make this baby be slightly biased towards Spike and Protestantism, because that's what I believe in (the Protestantism, though Spike does place highly in my personal belief system ^^.)

[pocochina]

mmm. I mean, I don't think you're making the show say anything. I mean, Judeo-Christian allegory is important enough in Western society that the broadest themes are frequently there to find.

This might be o/t but I would love to see Angel's spiritual journey traced through the seven sacraments, which are meant to track the progression of the Catholic life. Baptism, we've discussed. After the loss of the soul, he effectively acts as if he's taken Holy Orders, and cannot be sexually active while on his spiritual journey. &c, &c. Obviously the list of sacraments, and the way Angel keeps making them throughout his journey, is arguably in line with your thesis.

Which, you know, obviously I think your thesis is great already, but for purposes of expediency, it might make structuring a little bit easier?

Spike does place highly in my personal belief system

lol! you're a rebel.

[lutamira]

This is a really interesting concept and is well-written so far. I've not been part of the religious world for quite some time, but I grew up steeped in all this, at least the protestant side. Here are a few thoughts, for what they are worth, inspired by your essay and by Pocochina's 'Angel's path through the sacraments' comment above. Hope they help. If any of it feels like it will throw you off track, ignore it completely

[ever_neutral]

Oh bro, I'm so sorry this is giving you the shits! I feel you. It's a shame when a passion starts to feel like a chore.

Angel believes he has to work towards redemption, while Spike saw himself redeemed the moment he went on his soul-quest.

I'm not so sure about that? I think it's more like, the act of going on his soul-quest is what redeems Spike. And since Angelus could never make the same choice, Angel has to keep atoning, and never reach the same level of self-actualization.

Hope that doesn't hinder!

Overall: I like this, dude. There is, of course, cleaning up sentences to do and all that, but it's a very engaging essay! All the best, and can't wait to see the final result. ♥

P.S. Sorry to hear about these new health problems. :\ *virtual hugs*

[blackfrancine]

I'm not so sure about that? I think it's more like, the act of going on his soul-quest is what redeems Spike. And since Angelus could never make the same choice, Angel has to keep atoning, and never reach the same level of self-actualization.Yeah, I'm prone to agree with this--I think, Lexi, you might want to consider talking about the act of choosing Christ in Protestantism (especially, in my experience, in the Baptist and Evangelical churches). Catholicism (and some Protestant denominations like Calvinists) relies heavily on the idea of God choosing you--God granting you a moment of grace (magic snow, watching a 15 year old girl suck on a lollypop, whatever) so that you're inspired to go on a journey of redemption (good works, etc). My boyfriend, who went to Catholic schools and churches most of his childhood, still jokes that he's "chosen" because that's what they were told

[rahirah]

Does Spike really believe he's redeemed in AtS S5? One of the main subplots of that season is the revelation that vampires with souls are doomed to go to hell because they have souls - they alone of all vampires are moral creatures, and therefore condemned to suffer for crimes that they committed while they were amoral. Unless they get the shiny, shiny shanshu, which will wipe their sins away

[blackfrancine]

Hmm. You're right about the going to hell--but I sort of think Spike's actions suggest that he did feel redeemed. Not innocent or guiltless, but redeemed--his existence had value. The fact that he would lay claim to the shanshu and then walk away from it just to do what's right for its own sake and also that when faced with the inevitability of hell, he pushed back against it: someone who didn't feel that they'd been redeemed would've accepted hell, taken it as their punishment and flagellated themselves for being so awful as to deserve hell; but he didn't, he fought for his right to go on living untormented. And he both accepted and dismissed the value of someone else's judgment of his life--all of that, to me, shows that he believes in himself and his own value (and to some extent his righteousness). This sort of feeds into the atheist reading I was alluding to above--that redemption isn't found externally (which, my thinking was, in this metaphor with Buffy as Christ, that's why he denies her love at the end of Chosen: He

[gryfndor_godess]

I like what you have so far. And as someone who is firmly a-religious and last attended church on a tourist trip, I found it very readable and the theology mostly understandable. A small clarification (for me at least, if not for the essay)- is 'justification' essentially synonymous with 'redemption' as used by laity and the Buffyverse characters? Perhaps you could cut the justification and sanctification paragraph into two, to shorten up that block of text and emphasize the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism.

Nitpicky concrit: Maybe call Drusilla a 'pious woman' instead of a 'pious girl'? We wouldn't call Liam a boy instead of a man.

-I don't think the money aspect of AI ruins your thesis. Angel is always unenthusiastic about it, and he's always willing to help people who can't pay, too; it's Cordelia who initially makes a big deal out of it (and, arguably, she has a point).

"while Spike saw himself redeemed the moment he went on his soul-quest."I'm not sure I agree with this totally. In retrospect, say in AtS

[eowyn_315]

I don't think the money aspect of AI ruins your thesis. Angel is always unenthusiastic about it, and he's always willing to help people who can't pay, too; it's Cordelia who initially makes a big deal out of it (and, arguably, she has a point).

Yep, and even churches have to pay their operating expenses. It's not generally as explicit as "please pay us to help you," but they are helping people while also collecting donations from them, though they would never turn away someone just because they couldn't put anything in the collection basket. AI is doing pretty much the same thing.

[stormwreath]

he needed magical snow to arbitrarily save him there, or does that prove my thesis that Buffy (Christ) isn't enough for Angel therefore he requires works to justify his redemption..

I'd say the second. The snow is a genuine bona fide miracle, but it's not there to "save" Angel. It's there to, in his words, show him that he's "a thing worth saving". It's the start of the journey, not the end of it; but it's a sign of Grace to tell him that it's worth him trying to become redeemed; that he's not doomed to fail before he even starts.

[blackfrancine]

This.

[ceciliaj]

Yep yep.