Neville also had a long time with the Hat. Rowling now claims it was because of his futile attempt to be Sorted into Hufflepuff (overridden by Gryffindor's Hat), but I'd love to see your take on it.
Maybe the Hat isn't so objective. Maybe its first question is 'do I want this one for *my* House?'
I don't think Hogwarts used thestrals before they had the train. swythyv showed canon evidence that the thestal herd is from after Hagrid became assistant-groundskeeper. (Possibly brought over by the victorious Albus in 1945). Maybe they had more hippogryfs back then. (I think most large magical creatures must be close to extinction outside of special reserves these days.)
Thestralsterri_testingNovember 12 2014, 16:30:21 UTC
Just reread OotP 21, and Hagrid says a), he's the only one training Thestrals in Britain, b) that the herd was built up from an original complement of one male, five females, and c)that his own favorite was the first one born in the Forbidden Forest. Now if we only knew what their lifespan was, or reproductive cycle, we'd know something....
Couple of options. If they're the only TRAINED herd in BRITAIN, Thestrals might have been Durmstang's or Beauxbaton's traditional mode of travel, and the original breeding herd presented to the Hogwarts Transfigurations Master in gratitude for defeating Grindelwald.....
On the other hand, if like the Basilisk they are effectively immortal, the Thestral herd might date back to the Founders (or nearly so), Tenebrus still be the first born/hatched on Hogwarts grounds, and Hagrid merely the first to TRAIN them. To pull carriages along a road. Which, when you think of it, has got to be as unnatural for them as training a bumblebee or hummingbird to do so.
Cult IndoctrinationoneandthetruthNovember 2 2014, 21:10:14 UTC
This is your usual ingenious analysis of Rowling's world that's so much better than the original, it makes me wish you had written the series instead. An added bonus is that you would have made Snape a more obviously heroic character. : )
Regarding your idea that the approach to Hogwarts was initially an ordeal designed to screen out the unworthy, you make a very persuasive case, and you may be right. But when I was reading your analysis, what occurred to me was not "ordeal" but "cult indoctrination."
Consider these similarities:
1) Candidates are forcibly (because they have no choice) taken out of their normal environment and placed in a new one. 2) They have to change from their everyday clothes into a new uniform. 3) They have to make a long, tedious, tiring journey to reach their destination. 4) They are only allowed to associate with their own kind during the trip. 5) They are kept hungry, which muddles--or should I say, muggles--their thinking and weakens their resistance. What food they’re allowed to eat is junk food, which
( ... )
Re: Cult Indoctrinationterri_testingNovember 6 2014, 05:00:00 UTC
Erk. You're right. And it works, as we talked about when we talked about all those Muggleborns in DH sitting on the street in Diagon begging for handouts from Death Eaters who might as easily kill as help them, rather than just turning around and rejoining the Muggle world! We don't know of one person who refuses to drink the Kool-Aid once indoctrinated....
Re: Cult IndoctrinationsunnyskywalkerNovember 12 2014, 03:49:31 UTC
We don't know of one person who refuses to drink the Kool-Aid once indoctrinated....
Now, now, you know it's pumpkin juice for this lot!
And isn't it a bit suspicious how all the Muggleborn kids start drinking pumpkin juice with no complaint? Not one of them ever grumbles that it's gross and they want orange juice at breakfast instead? What do they put in that pumpkin juice?
The "Rehabilitation" of Tom RiddleoneandthetruthNovember 2 2014, 23:16:03 UTC
Further, the first thing Albus taught Tom was that if he wanted to succeed in the WW, Tom needed to disguise his proclivities.
Yeah, why would he do that? You're assuming that, if Albus recognized how dangerous Tom was, that Albus wanted to train Tom out of his badness. But what if he didn'tWhen Tom came to Hogwarts in 1937, WW II had not yet started, and Albus's ex-flame Gellert had not begun his campaign to take over Europe. There were still plenty of people alive who either remembered or must have heard about the plans of Albus and Gellert to subjugate the muggles and take over the world for wizardkind. That kind of ultra-juicy gossip can never be kept secret, particularly (1) in a small, closed community, (2) when one of the people involved is the alleged superstar of his generation, and (3) when that person has a position of authority at one of the society’s most important institutions. Even 40 years later, people would still quite reasonably be suspicious of Albus's insistence that he had changed, he didn't want power, he
( ... )
Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom Riddleterri_testingNovember 6 2014, 05:52:06 UTC
You know, before I read DH for the first time I regarded Albus Dumbledore more or less as Harry did: as the wise, benevolent, utterly-to-be-trusted mentor figure. Even after my first reading of DH, I mistrusted his judgment sometimes and thought him ruthless. My first fictions, even, he mentored Sev. But the more deeply I considered his actions, and his probable motivations
( ... )
Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom RiddleoneandthetruthNovember 9 2014, 23:40:08 UTC
You know, before I read DH for the first time I regarded Albus Dumbledore more or less as Harry did: as the wise, benevolent, utterly-to-be-trusted mentor figure.
As I've said, I was pretty sure he was a bad guy from the first chapter of PS/SS. I'm always suspicious of characters the author tries to "sell" too hard. If they're really good, that should be revealed over time during the story. Yet there was Rowling, right there in the first chapter of the first book, telling us, not about the little boy who is titular focus of the series, but some old guy and how wonderful he is. Think about how weird it would look if, in chapter 1 of A Study in Scarlet, Watson had started raving about how great Inspector Lestrade was. It just doesn't fit.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous. As the Master said, "To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are." (GREE)
( ... )
Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom RiddleoneandthetruthNovember 9 2014, 23:47:54 UTC
We know Albus is a Dark Arts expert, and he is EXACTLY the sort of person who'd be quite sure he could handle the Dark Arts without being damaged by them. Lesser people, yes, might have their perceptions and empathy scrambled, but not he.
No, no, you still don't get it! You're still assuming there was some impulse to good or decency in him. There was not! There was nothing to corrupt because he was already corrupt!
If you want to understand Asshole Scummywhore, you really need to read Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths among Us. That book is absolutely priceless in understanding how these vermin think and operate.
One of the things he emphasizes, and which I brought up in "Chaos a Hundred Times," is that psychopaths have an extremely limited emotional range. There are degrees of psychopathy, but the really dangerous, hard-core ones--like Albus--feel only frustration, anger, and rage. That's it. They don't experience love, compassion, understanding, empathy, or forgiveness. When they talk
( ... )
Oh, I like this very much! It would explain so much. Including why Hagrid has a grand title like "Keeper of the Keys" when that doesn't seem to matter to anything--back in days when witches or wizards might be as likely to be taught by their local hedge witch or a private tutor rather than attending Hogwarts, or might not start their educations until later in life, the power to bar Hogwarts to anyone who hadn't specifically been allowed entry would be a big deal. Now that everyone or nearly everyone attends starting at age 11, just about every magical human in Britain can get onto the grounds by the time they hit puberty and the significance of the position is obscured
( ... )
Before Hagrid became Keeper of the Keys, who led the kids in the boats? Perhaps the Keeper gets special magical permission to ride the boats, because before Hagrid I think the Keepers were adults.
Yes, the entire fleet of boats allows at most one adult wizard. And Tom's boat works the same way.
Fleet of boatsterri_testingNovember 6 2014, 06:33:28 UTC
Yes, I think your extension has it. It carries one adult/initiate (Hagrid IS initiate into Hogwarts, even if he's not legally a qualified wizard), and an indefinite number of children/uninitiated
( ... )
Re: Fleet of boatsoryx_leucoryxNovember 6 2014, 16:32:01 UTC
Wizarding-raised children are allowed in Diagon Alley from birth, of course - they can be brought in by parents, and we do see children wandering off, admiring broomsticks and joke products. Muggles can enter to accompany their magical children, but I don't think wizards let them hang out on their own - Arthur insists on taking the Grangers for a drink when Hermione goes off with Harry and Ron (and the Grangers never come to Diagon Alley again
( ... )
Comments 83
Maybe the Hat isn't so objective. Maybe its first question is 'do I want this one for *my* House?'
Reply
Reply
Couple of options. If they're the only TRAINED herd in BRITAIN, Thestrals might have been Durmstang's or Beauxbaton's traditional mode of travel, and the original breeding herd presented to the Hogwarts Transfigurations Master in gratitude for defeating Grindelwald.....
On the other hand, if like the Basilisk they are effectively immortal, the Thestral herd might date back to the Founders (or nearly so), Tenebrus still be the first born/hatched on Hogwarts grounds, and Hagrid merely the first to TRAIN them. To pull carriages along a road. Which, when you think of it, has got to be as unnatural for them as training a bumblebee or hummingbird to do so.
Reply
Regarding your idea that the approach to Hogwarts was initially an ordeal designed to screen out the unworthy, you make a very persuasive case, and you may be right. But when I was reading your analysis, what occurred to me was not "ordeal" but "cult indoctrination."
Consider these similarities:
1) Candidates are forcibly (because they have no choice) taken out of their normal environment and placed in a new one.
2) They have to change from their everyday clothes into a new uniform.
3) They have to make a long, tedious, tiring journey to reach their destination.
4) They are only allowed to associate with their own kind during the trip.
5) They are kept hungry, which muddles--or should I say, muggles--their thinking and weakens their resistance. What food they’re allowed to eat is junk food, which ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Reply
Now, now, you know it's pumpkin juice for this lot!
And isn't it a bit suspicious how all the Muggleborn kids start drinking pumpkin juice with no complaint? Not one of them ever grumbles that it's gross and they want orange juice at breakfast instead? What do they put in that pumpkin juice?
Reply
Yeah, why would he do that? You're assuming that, if Albus recognized how dangerous Tom was, that Albus wanted to train Tom out of his badness. But what if he didn'tWhen Tom came to Hogwarts in 1937, WW II had not yet started, and Albus's ex-flame Gellert had not begun his campaign to take over Europe. There were still plenty of people alive who either remembered or must have heard about the plans of Albus and Gellert to subjugate the muggles and take over the world for wizardkind. That kind of ultra-juicy gossip can never be kept secret, particularly (1) in a small, closed community, (2) when one of the people involved is the alleged superstar of his generation, and (3) when that person has a position of authority at one of the society’s most important institutions. Even 40 years later, people would still quite reasonably be suspicious of Albus's insistence that he had changed, he didn't want power, he ( ... )
Reply
Reply
As I've said, I was pretty sure he was a bad guy from the first chapter of PS/SS. I'm always suspicious of characters the author tries to "sell" too hard. If they're really good, that should be revealed over time during the story. Yet there was Rowling, right there in the first chapter of the first book, telling us, not about the little boy who is titular focus of the series, but some old guy and how wonderful he is. Think about how weird it would look if, in chapter 1 of A Study in Scarlet, Watson had started raving about how great Inspector Lestrade was. It just doesn't fit.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous. As the Master said, "To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are." (GREE) ( ... )
Reply
No, no, you still don't get it! You're still assuming there was some impulse to good or decency in him. There was not! There was nothing to corrupt because he was already corrupt!
If you want to understand Asshole Scummywhore, you really need to read Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths among Us. That book is absolutely priceless in understanding how these vermin think and operate.
One of the things he emphasizes, and which I brought up in "Chaos a Hundred Times," is that psychopaths have an extremely limited emotional range. There are degrees of psychopathy, but the really dangerous, hard-core ones--like Albus--feel only frustration, anger, and rage. That's it. They don't experience love, compassion, understanding, empathy, or forgiveness. When they talk ( ... )
Reply
Reply
Before Hagrid became Keeper of the Keys, who led the kids in the boats? Perhaps the Keeper gets special magical permission to ride the boats, because before Hagrid I think the Keepers were adults.
Yes, the entire fleet of boats allows at most one adult wizard. And Tom's boat works the same way.
Reply
Reply
Reply
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