Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom Riddleterri_testingNovember 6 2014, 05:52:06 UTC
You know, before I read DH for the first time I regarded Albus Dumbledore more or less as Harry did: as the wise, benevolent, utterly-to-be-trusted mentor figure. Even after my first reading of DH, I mistrusted his judgment sometimes and thought him ruthless. My first fictions, even, he mentored Sev. But the more deeply I considered his actions, and his probable motivations...
It's like falling off a cliff. You fall, and are terrified, and bang about, and then by some miracle you're at the bottom, battered but alive. And you stagger to your feet, only you're on another cliff-edge and are falling again.... Every time you think you MUST have hit bottom, there's an even worse interpretation of what Twinkles might have been up to.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous.
Now to the next question: why didn't that Hat catch ALBUS? Because, in effect, you've just pushed the problem back a generation.
Or was there nothing to catch, back when Albus was Sorted? I've been re-reading Jodel's foundation essays, and hir theory of Dark Arts Dementia. We know Albus is a Dark Arts expert, and he is EXACTLY the sort of person who'd be quite sure he could handle the Dark Arts without being damaged by them. Lesser people, yes, might have their perceptions and empathy scrambled, but not he. Why, he later hid the Horcrux books from the Restricted Section IN HIS OWN OFFICE (one suspects that there are books which, like the locket, might be unwholesome to be around for long). Maybe he was fine at eleven, but just got in a little too much practice on his sub-specialty over his summer vacations...? Either those long years he was a teacher, or even back when he was a student?
Ouch--Jodel also posits that the Dark Arts are the source and inspiration of most important magical invention, and Albus was early famous for, what? His... creativity. (His OTP Gellert, of course, was notorious for HIS--that's what he was expelled from Durmstrang for, experiments.) And during Albus's student holidays, while Aberforth and Kendra spent most of their time and attention on Ariana, there was Albus, "always up in his bedroom when he was home, reading his books and counting his prizes, keeping up with his correspondance with 'the most notable magical names of the day.'" Only, y'know, maybe not just reading. Or writing.
(In fact--wanting to perform illicit experiments would be a very good reason TO come home for the optional holidays. Otherwise why not be like Hermione and claim he needs to stay and study where he has access to the school library?)
We always knew there was an element of projection in his treatment of Severus--maybe that's the reason he claimed to be afraid to let Severus near the Dark Arts. Twinkle, twinkle.
Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom RiddleoneandthetruthNovember 9 2014, 23:40:08 UTC
You know, before I read DH for the first time I regarded Albus Dumbledore more or less as Harry did: as the wise, benevolent, utterly-to-be-trusted mentor figure.
As I've said, I was pretty sure he was a bad guy from the first chapter of PS/SS. I'm always suspicious of characters the author tries to "sell" too hard. If they're really good, that should be revealed over time during the story. Yet there was Rowling, right there in the first chapter of the first book, telling us, not about the little boy who is titular focus of the series, but some old guy and how wonderful he is. Think about how weird it would look if, in chapter 1 of A Study in Scarlet, Watson had started raving about how great Inspector Lestrade was. It just doesn't fit.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous.
As the Master said, "To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are." (GREE) Telling the ugly truth about somebody is not bashing.
Now to the next question: why didn't that Hat catch ALBUS? Because, in effect, you've just pushed the problem back a generation.
Or was there nothing to catch, back when Albus was Sorted?
As I said above, he conned it. The Hat was no doubt designed to evaluate normal people. Since psychopaths are relatively rare (2-4% of the population), and the concept of psychopathy didn't even exist 1000 years ago, the Hat was never "programmed" to look for that and eliminate people who had it.
Re: The "Rehabilitation" of Tom RiddleoneandthetruthNovember 9 2014, 23:47:54 UTC
We know Albus is a Dark Arts expert, and he is EXACTLY the sort of person who'd be quite sure he could handle the Dark Arts without being damaged by them. Lesser people, yes, might have their perceptions and empathy scrambled, but not he.
No, no, you still don't get it! You're still assuming there was some impulse to good or decency in him. There was not! There was nothing to corrupt because he was already corrupt!
If you want to understand Asshole Scummywhore, you really need to read Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths among Us. That book is absolutely priceless in understanding how these vermin think and operate.
One of the things he emphasizes, and which I brought up in "Chaos a Hundred Times," is that psychopaths have an extremely limited emotional range. There are degrees of psychopathy, but the really dangerous, hard-core ones--like Albus--feel only frustration, anger, and rage. That's it. They don't experience love, compassion, understanding, empathy, or forgiveness. When they talk about those emotions, they're lying to manipulate others. Because they lack empathy, they think everybody else is just like them. So when they hear other people talking about those emotions, they assume others are lying to manipulate them. In other words, Albus wouldn't have worried about being corrupted by the Dark Arts because he was already corrupt, and he assumed everybody else was, too!
We always knew there was an element of projection in his treatment of Severus--maybe that's the reason he claimed to be afraid to let Severus near the Dark Arts. Twinkle, twinkle.
It's far more likely he was afraid of the competition. Albus went out of his way to beat down Severus. You don't work that hard to crush somebody unless you regard them as a serious threat to your power.
Albus and the competitionterri_testingNovember 14 2014, 05:52:57 UTC
Beating down the competition.
Um.
NONE of the children Albus educated ever had a chance to outdo him, have you happened to have noticed? For one reason or another.
Albus once said Tom was smarter than he. Yet it's Albus whose creativity Griselda Marchbanks still gushes over (as Slughorn gushes over Snape's).
Albus's best students never got introduced via correspondance to international experts, like Phineas had arranged with Albus. (Sluggie could only twitch connections in the Ministry--a very poor second best for a real high-flyer. Albus was known internationally by the time he graduated--Tom was offered an entry-level position in the Ministry.)
But mostly, Albus's most-able students got swept up in extremist groups, of one stripe or another. And died very, very young.
It's like falling off a cliff. You fall, and are terrified, and bang about, and then by some miracle you're at the bottom, battered but alive. And you stagger to your feet, only you're on another cliff-edge and are falling again.... Every time you think you MUST have hit bottom, there's an even worse interpretation of what Twinkles might have been up to.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous.
Now to the next question: why didn't that Hat catch ALBUS? Because, in effect, you've just pushed the problem back a generation.
Or was there nothing to catch, back when Albus was Sorted? I've been re-reading Jodel's foundation essays, and hir theory of Dark Arts Dementia. We know Albus is a Dark Arts expert, and he is EXACTLY the sort of person who'd be quite sure he could handle the Dark Arts without being damaged by them. Lesser people, yes, might have their perceptions and empathy scrambled, but not he. Why, he later hid the Horcrux books from the Restricted Section IN HIS OWN OFFICE (one suspects that there are books which, like the locket, might be unwholesome to be around for long). Maybe he was fine at eleven, but just got in a little too much practice on his sub-specialty over his summer vacations...? Either those long years he was a teacher, or even back when he was a student?
Ouch--Jodel also posits that the Dark Arts are the source and inspiration of most important magical invention, and Albus was early famous for, what? His... creativity. (His OTP Gellert, of course, was notorious for HIS--that's what he was expelled from Durmstrang for, experiments.) And during Albus's student holidays, while Aberforth and Kendra spent most of their time and attention on Ariana, there was Albus, "always up in his bedroom when he was home, reading his books and counting his prizes, keeping up with his correspondance with 'the most notable magical names of the day.'" Only, y'know, maybe not just reading. Or writing.
(In fact--wanting to perform illicit experiments would be a very good reason TO come home for the optional holidays. Otherwise why not be like Hermione and claim he needs to stay and study where he has access to the school library?)
We always knew there was an element of projection in his treatment of Severus--maybe that's the reason he claimed to be afraid to let Severus near the Dark Arts. Twinkle, twinkle.
Reply
As I've said, I was pretty sure he was a bad guy from the first chapter of PS/SS. I'm always suspicious of characters the author tries to "sell" too hard. If they're really good, that should be revealed over time during the story. Yet there was Rowling, right there in the first chapter of the first book, telling us, not about the little boy who is titular focus of the series, but some old guy and how wonderful he is. Think about how weird it would look if, in chapter 1 of A Study in Scarlet, Watson had started raving about how great Inspector Lestrade was. It just doesn't fit.
I must hand it to you--it's hard to outdo me in Albus-bashing.
But you're correct, if you assume Albus is smart enough to have at least an idea of what he's doing, the implications are... horrendous.
As the Master said, "To the logician all things should be seen exactly as they are." (GREE) Telling the ugly truth about somebody is not bashing.
Now to the next question: why didn't that Hat catch ALBUS? Because, in effect, you've just pushed the problem back a generation.
Or was there nothing to catch, back when Albus was Sorted?
As I said above, he conned it. The Hat was no doubt designed to evaluate normal people. Since psychopaths are relatively rare (2-4% of the population), and the concept of psychopathy didn't even exist 1000 years ago, the Hat was never "programmed" to look for that and eliminate people who had it.
Reply
No, no, you still don't get it! You're still assuming there was some impulse to good or decency in him. There was not! There was nothing to corrupt because he was already corrupt!
If you want to understand Asshole Scummywhore, you really need to read Dr. Hare's book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths among Us. That book is absolutely priceless in understanding how these vermin think and operate.
One of the things he emphasizes, and which I brought up in "Chaos a Hundred Times," is that psychopaths have an extremely limited emotional range. There are degrees of psychopathy, but the really dangerous, hard-core ones--like Albus--feel only frustration, anger, and rage. That's it. They don't experience love, compassion, understanding, empathy, or forgiveness. When they talk about those emotions, they're lying to manipulate others. Because they lack empathy, they think everybody else is just like them. So when they hear other people talking about those emotions, they assume others are lying to manipulate them. In other words, Albus wouldn't have worried about being corrupted by the Dark Arts because he was already corrupt, and he assumed everybody else was, too!
We always knew there was an element of projection in his treatment of Severus--maybe that's the reason he claimed to be afraid to let Severus near the Dark Arts. Twinkle, twinkle.
It's far more likely he was afraid of the competition. Albus went out of his way to beat down Severus. You don't work that hard to crush somebody unless you regard them as a serious threat to your power.
Reply
Um.
NONE of the children Albus educated ever had a chance to outdo him, have you happened to have noticed? For one reason or another.
Albus once said Tom was smarter than he. Yet it's Albus whose creativity Griselda Marchbanks still gushes over (as Slughorn gushes over Snape's).
Albus's best students never got introduced via correspondance to international experts, like Phineas had arranged with Albus. (Sluggie could only twitch connections in the Ministry--a very poor second best for a real high-flyer. Albus was known internationally by the time he graduated--Tom was offered an entry-level position in the Ministry.)
But mostly, Albus's most-able students got swept up in extremist groups, of one stripe or another. And died very, very young.
There. Is that cynical enough for you?
Reply
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