I have niggling issues with LotF on a number of counts, but one of the more disturbing ones is something that I've only put my finger on recently. ( Read more... )
I don't have much to say other than "Word", "Word" and "So much word".
The funny thing is that not too long ago, I read an entry on Wikipedia about how comic book female characters are always used/abused and tend to stay dead more permanently than their male counterparts. It was called the Women in Refrigerator Syndrome.
That is a fascinating article. I am not all that familiar with comic books, but I know I was pretty disturbed when I picked up one of my brother's books and flipped through. It wasn't just the violence, but the way it was presented - it was overtly sexualised in how female victims were depicted. The mind boggles at the implications of that.
I came across the Frank Miller test looking around the net for links on women in sci fi yesterday, and it's pretty interesting as well. Skewed perspectives still abound, oh yes.
it was overtly sexualised in how female victims were depicted. The mind boggles at the implications of that.
If you mean like Wonder Woman's or Power Girl's double Ds and skimpy outfits as opposed to Batman & Spider man being completely covered from head to toe and Peter Parker not even being tall... that is the reason why (despite my love for sci-fi/fantasy) I was never a comic book fan.
I came across the Frank Miller test looking around the net for links on women in sci fi yesterday, and it's pretty interesting as well.
I read the article and found myself agreeing with everything except the C. S. Lewis story. I've read that story and it's not, as the writer implied, a story canonizing whores. *shrugs*
Oh, I won't start on Frank Miller and the whores-are-heroes theme of Sin City.
The skimpy outfits are an issue too, but whatever this comic was had even more problematic issues in terms of female victims of violence. Which is nothing new in comics, I suppose. *sigh*
Skewed perspectives in more ways that one, I guess, then. :p I've never read C.S. Lewis.
And it sounds like Frank Miller definitely had some issues with prostitutes, and women in general...
The problem is, it's not just Star Wars - it seems the majority of fandoms out there either kill of their main female characters, pair them off, domesticate them, push them into the background or shunt them off somewhere.
I was actually discussing this with someone the other day, and it is really quite disturbing when you think about how often it happens. The main thing that pisses me off is that it's often justified as character growth for the main male character - to have him deal with the fallout, or develop his character (Mara is the prime example of this, in order to prop Jacen up) which is ridiculous. You so rarely see the female killed off in a blaze of glory that justifies her death. The only recent exception to this I can think of is maybe Torchwood. I don't think Mara's death was blaze of glory style, because it could have been avoided.
*nods* Absolutely. And there's still a that strong socialisation that there's nothing abnormal about that. We talk about strong female characters and it's something to be noted, but who talks about strong male characters?
That's a very good point about killing off female characters. It's like a female character has to be a victim, whereas a male character has to be seen to be triumphant even in death.
Yes...women always have to be the victims, not so much characters in their own right but as appendages to the men. I think it's not only in death, either - we hardly ever see a female character who doesn't end up being paired off. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's good to have romance, but it's also nice to have female characters who not go weak at the knees all of a sudden, just because they've been thrown together with any plot-available male. And it's not that I have uber!feminist issues either - bad characterisation in general bothers me, and it often seems the women get far more sidelined than the men.
Who can forget Leia of the OT? Luke and Han went to 'rescue the princess' and she ended up rescuing them. What happened since then?
I like the use of the Djaq icon. :p It makes me sad that it seems like her only real plotline is the love interest thing, where she's such an interesting character with so much potential. And as you point out, the phenomenon isn't limited to one or two shows, it's depressingly common.
You do not sound unreasonable and flaily. I feel exactly the same way. The women have been shunted to the sidelines, abused, warped, subjugated, and killed. And in Revelation, written by a woman, we have blatant statements along those lines, like Jacen telling Tahiri that Pellaeon will listen to her because she's "attractive and charming".
I find it all tremendously insulting. The fair treatment of women is one of the prime reasons I love Zahn's work: His female characters are treated with the sort of respect that one accords as a matter of course, they hold their own with the boys without sacrificing femininity, and his casts are relatively equal in numbers, with women playing as many roles as the men. And it says something about just how little we see that sort of equal treatment, that it stands out so prominently to me when I do find it.
I'm just so thoroughly sick of it. And yet I wanted to be coherent, and not 'OMG, OPPRESSION!!1!' :p This is definitely not what I like about Star Wars.
And thanks! It's surprisingly hard to find pics of Mara that are icon-able. Google images searches of her name are definitely not advisable. *wince*
I think one of the reasons this phenomenon hasn't bothered me much in the EU overall is that my very favorite books are by Zahn and Allston, both of whom tend to be quite good about including a fair number of female characters and portraying them realistically, without sidelining them. Many books by other authors irritate me on so many other levels that it's hard to pick out just one reason; as well, I often read those books once, say "Meh", and only look at them again for research, so I forget some of their worst aspects.
With LotF, though, it's been kind of hard to avoid specifically because the three arguably strongest women in the EU, Leia, Mara, and Jaina, have all been sidelined - and have been written pretty OOC in order to do so. Leia's done very little in this series. Mara's been written as so OOC gullible and passive that it's nauseating. Jaina's hardly even been mentioned until Revelation, and then it's only to point out time and time again how unqualified she supposedly is, despite a lifetime of Jedi training and having
( ... )
I hadn't even thought of Mirta. Probably because the Mando plotline is so gratuitous it feels like it could be out of another series completely. Granted I haven't read Revelation yet, but the long Mando sections in Sacrifice were so out of place it was laughable. Boba sitting down to dinner with his Mando buddies - yeah, I can really see how that relates to what's going on in the rest of the book. /sarcasm
Well, I can understand why they picked Mara to kill off. They thought they needed someone strong and vital and important to the SW universe. They couldn't kill off Leia, Han, Luke or Ben. So Mara was kind of a glaring beacon. Not that I was happy about it but it made sense. The way she was killed off left much to be desired, however.
But you are certainly correct in the other important female characters dying off and how it's done. And don't get me started on Jaina. What the heck was she thinking??? And Tahiri? That's not Tahiri in the last book - unless she's going to turn on Jacen and try and gut him in the next book.
Could it be because Padme was such a weak character in ROTS that the authors think it's okay for women to be weak in the stories now? She was strong in TPM and somewhat in AOTC but nothing but a weeping, hand-wringing wimp in ROTS.
I know what you mean. And yet you do get sick of the female love interest always being expendable, and her death only having meaning in the way it affects the other characters - in a way even her death is made passive, rather than an active meaningful death.
I can't even begin to understand what's been done with Jaina and especially Tahiri. It occurs that if that maybe Mara's was a kind fate compared to what they've subjected Tahiri to...
Padme's fate was bizarre on so many levels. *shakes head*
Surprisingly, I'm finding Tenel Ka to be the strongest female in this series. She's refused to back down to Cadeus, even though she was in love with Jacen. And, her reward for being awesome is probably to be killed off.
Also: While I'm not trying to justify it at all, it could always be worse. By standards today, Leia is pretty typical. But 30 years ago, there hadn't been too many sci-fi or adventure characters who got to contribute so much to the storyline.
Maybe that's why all the LOTF nonsense at the moment is upsetting. SW is a franchise which helped women characters to be seen as legitimate badasses. But decades later, its own in-universe feminist legacy is a bit of a disappointment.
You know, I was just reading that after being linked via someone else's LJ. And yeah, worse. I... don't know, maybe my tolerance is low at the moment, but I can't even laugh at something like that. The badness really does burn the brain. *shudders*
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The funny thing is that not too long ago, I read an entry on Wikipedia about how comic book female characters are always used/abused and tend to stay dead more permanently than their male counterparts. It was called the Women in Refrigerator Syndrome.
Reply
I came across the Frank Miller test looking around the net for links on women in sci fi yesterday, and it's pretty interesting as well. Skewed perspectives still abound, oh yes.
Reply
If you mean like Wonder Woman's or Power Girl's double Ds and skimpy outfits as opposed to Batman & Spider man being completely covered from head to toe and Peter Parker not even being tall... that is the reason why (despite my love for sci-fi/fantasy) I was never a comic book fan.
I came across the Frank Miller test looking around the net for links on women in sci fi yesterday, and it's pretty interesting as well.
I read the article and found myself agreeing with everything except the C. S. Lewis story. I've read that story and it's not, as the writer implied, a story canonizing whores. *shrugs*
Oh, I won't start on Frank Miller and the whores-are-heroes theme of Sin City.
Reply
Skewed perspectives in more ways that one, I guess, then. :p I've never read C.S. Lewis.
And it sounds like Frank Miller definitely had some issues with prostitutes, and women in general...
Reply
I was actually discussing this with someone the other day, and it is really quite disturbing when you think about how often it happens. The main thing that pisses me off is that it's often justified as character growth for the main male character - to have him deal with the fallout, or develop his character (Mara is the prime example of this, in order to prop Jacen up) which is ridiculous. You so rarely see the female killed off in a blaze of glory that justifies her death. The only recent exception to this I can think of is maybe Torchwood. I don't think Mara's death was blaze of glory style, because it could have been avoided.
Reply
That's a very good point about killing off female characters. It's like a female character has to be a victim, whereas a male character has to be seen to be triumphant even in death.
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Who can forget Leia of the OT? Luke and Han went to 'rescue the princess' and she ended up rescuing them. What happened since then?
Edited for typos.
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I find it all tremendously insulting. The fair treatment of women is one of the prime reasons I love Zahn's work: His female characters are treated with the sort of respect that one accords as a matter of course, they hold their own with the boys without sacrificing femininity, and his casts are relatively equal in numbers, with women playing as many roles as the men. And it says something about just how little we see that sort of equal treatment, that it stands out so prominently to me when I do find it.
However, I do love that Mara icon. :D
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And thanks! It's surprisingly hard to find pics of Mara that are icon-able. Google images searches of her name are definitely not advisable. *wince*
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With LotF, though, it's been kind of hard to avoid specifically because the three arguably strongest women in the EU, Leia, Mara, and Jaina, have all been sidelined - and have been written pretty OOC in order to do so. Leia's done very little in this series. Mara's been written as so OOC gullible and passive that it's nauseating. Jaina's hardly even been mentioned until Revelation, and then it's only to point out time and time again how unqualified she supposedly is, despite a lifetime of Jedi training and having ( ... )
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But you are certainly correct in the other important female characters dying off and how it's done. And don't get me started on Jaina. What the heck was she thinking??? And Tahiri? That's not Tahiri in the last book - unless she's going to turn on Jacen and try and gut him in the next book.
Could it be because Padme was such a weak character in ROTS that the authors think it's okay for women to be weak in the stories now? She was strong in TPM and somewhat in AOTC but nothing but a weeping, hand-wringing wimp in ROTS.
Reply
I can't even begin to understand what's been done with Jaina and especially Tahiri. It occurs that if that maybe Mara's was a kind fate compared to what they've subjected Tahiri to...
Padme's fate was bizarre on so many levels. *shakes head*
Reply
Surprisingly, I'm finding Tenel Ka to be the strongest female in this series. She's refused to back down to Cadeus, even though she was in love with Jacen. And, her reward for being awesome is probably to be killed off.
Also: While I'm not trying to justify it at all, it could always be worse. By standards today, Leia is pretty typical. But 30 years ago, there hadn't been too many sci-fi or adventure characters who got to contribute so much to the storyline.
Maybe that's why all the LOTF nonsense at the moment is upsetting. SW is a franchise which helped women characters to be seen as legitimate badasses. But decades later, its own in-universe feminist legacy is a bit of a disappointment.
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Worst. Pun. Ever.
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