Gaming, escapism, definition

[yeloson]

Another example of how white folks can't imagine POC outside of their own definitions for us.Basically, I just wanted a setting where you could have a bunch of POC with a wide range of skin tones. I'm irritated over the idea that POC can't exist in fantasy without the stereotypes or having to exist in some kind of historical context, when most

Comments

[witchwillow]

I just got caught up in that tangle these last few months

[yeloson]

Well, yeah. It's fantasy- they have no problem suddenly Dancing With Wolves or being the Last Samurai. If you wanted an Ethiopian version of the British Empire, why not?

I see it folds two ways:

1) We don't have stories utilizing POC cultural references, so it becomes harder for us to engage with "what a story should look like" with those references

2) We also start having trouble just telling stories with POC because we fall into the same trap of having to -make- them conform to either false cultural references or research real ones, and in both ways, dip into "othering" and a bit of cultural appropriation.

I'm looking at it like this- fantasy is always a product of it's times, it's not about the fictional time, it's a product of the time it's written.

If modern American fantasy typically lacks stuff of the times like an oppressive church, plagues, superstition, horrible classism, sexism, racism, etc., then why can't we also import other things - like POC central settings?

[kialio]

I have the same problem when setting up stories. There was one I was working on that was sort of a fantasy mythology of the U.S. wherein each ethnic group represented a different type of fantastical people for one reason or another.

Then I fell into the how much culture or how little to display minefield. How much "old world" folklore to bring in; and I started to wonder if it was feasible while working with European fantasy races. So now the story is just a pile of scrap paper with writing and doodles till I figure that all out, if ever.

[yeloson]

Yeah, the problem is always one of context. I mean, I posted my setting idea there, and first thing people interpret it as, "Dood! I haz 6 arms and blue skin! Reincarnation! Gurus!"

And I'm like- NO. This is everything I didn't want. I guess I could take the 6 months to draw up a bunch of images, in color, write up 200 pages of setting stuff, and never mention the word "India" and then present it, but really.

Of course, if I never mentioned it at all, they'd assume all the characters were white...

[witchwillow]

I didn't see gurus and 'omg indian trappings'. I think maybe because of the airships.

But also maybe because of Avatar: The Last Airbender, where the culture is based on Chinese culture but shifted into AU. However I'm getting from you that -you- weren't seeing things even as much as an A:TLAB style setting.

[yeloson]

Basically, I was see it about as much trappings as D&D has to Europe - not a lot.

[slam_bradley]

Part of the problem may be people do kind of see D&D as historically correct in some sense. Which -- you know -- no.

You could probably argue that settings like Forgotten Realms treat all their cultures with a similar measure of historical inaccuracy, but they largely seem rooted in european stereotypes of those cultures. It's an outsider's interpretation, where much of the European basis of D&D comes from an insider's perspective. I hope I'm making sense.

I think we saw something like this on a larger scale with the Earthsea mini. Not only do POC have to conform to certain expectations, but when that doesn't happen we'll just cast white actors when we make the movie. Yuk.

OTish - The setting in the link feels like it would translate well to Steampunk.

[yeloson]

Yeah, the irritation I'm having is making me want to write a larger post about the issue, and LeGuin's essay on the Earthsea mini is definitely something I'm thinking about linking.

Settingwise, the airships are powered by pieces of fallen stars- organists ("Propulsionists") play the pipes channeling the wind that reminds the fallen star of the sky it once called home, and so, the airships float up, hoping to reach the stars again.

Yes, I love the cracktasticness of it all, but when you're talking D&D, you need to go all out.

[8mph_ansible]

Cracktasticness love. I just love it when music, and even poetry, have a "power" of their own in a universe. Though such things can garner those blank looks expressed in an ellipsis form friends and players. Stuff like an IFF that requires you hitting the right notes either vocally or instrumentally lest you be painted as a target and weapons that expel loud, off-key and out-of-tune music to disorient a target.

[fire_fly]

Um, look, I don't know where you're getting the idea that astras and sannyasi, as Matt describes them, are "historical" aspects of India. They're mythological. More specifically, they're Hindu mythology, and there are lots of Indian people who aren't Hindu. I guess the point is kinda moot when you're basically saying that stereotypes = fail, but I'm honestly not sure why you mentioned "India" at all unless you were talking about a specific period in history or wanting to incorporate specific cultural elements?

I guess this issue is kinda why I stopped reading fantasy. I was looking for genuinely imaginative renderings of human cultures -- unique and non-Earthly at times -- and all I kept getting was a mythologised version of the imagined European past. I guess the whole Earthsea kerfuffle is a sign of the cultural bankruptcy of the contemporary fantasy Establishment...

[yeloson]

Yes, I don't consider it anymore historical than the Bible, Koran, etc. Or you know, mistake Hinduism for the entirety of the many peoples and cultures of India.

I'd like to imagine between the two posts there's nothing indicating that deep level of cluelessness on my part, and if so, no, that's not my intent.

[fire_fly]

So... I'm honestly not sure why you mentioned "India" at all unless you were talking about a specific period in history or wanting to incorporate specific cultural elements?

E.g. something beyond "because the people are all brown-skinned"? Because, fantastical/mythological or historical, there's gotta be some cultural connection there to justify it otherwise it looks like "all Indians are brown-skinned and all brown-skinned people are Indian"...

[yeloson]

So, because I wanted to do a fantasy with a different ethnic casting and costuming, as much as if you did Othello with different people, (and honestly, D&D is not very European culturally either), and explicitly want to avoid cultural appropriation even with the folks I'm gaming with...

I'm at fault because I didn't include a fat list of common sense stuff to educate whitey?

Because really, you're pulling some interesting strawmen that I'm not saying, even in your original response.

[skywardprodigal]

I'm irritated over the idea that POC can't exist in fantasy without the stereotypes or having to exist in some kind of historical context, when most white fantasy doesn't have to justify itself in the same way.

This is so deep.

I don't know if I can write that, myself. O.O