I Should Be Writing....

[dawn_felagund]

But as you can see, I am not.

Comments

[enismirdal]

The argument I've been given goes back to the stories in BOLT1 - in which every Elf waking at Cuivienen had their spouse beside them. Finwë and Míriel are said to have fallen in love when in Valinor, which sort of suggests they met later on in the history of Arda, so couldn't have been Unbegotten. Plus, Míriel's name "Serinde" is given as a mother-name in PoME.

Gacked from Usenet:
The 'Awakening' story has 144 Quendi as 'Unbegotten' (those who 'Awoke', and were not 'Born'). Now these 144 were 72 pairs. Each Quendi awoke next to his or her 'destined spouse' (see WotJ, 'Of Quendi and Eldar'). Elwe had to wife Melian, who he met later in Beleriand. Melian was a Maia did not Awake at Cuivienen. Hence Elwe did not Awake at Cuivienen. Elwe is attested to as having (at least) 2 siblings (Olwe and Elmo). Elwe, Olwe and Elmo being brothers need parents. Hence Elwe was born. Miriel Serinde was the wife of Finwe. Serinde is attested to as a 'mother-name' (see PoME, 'Shibboleth of Feanor'). A 'mother-name' is given to an Elda by their mother (op

[kaikias]

I bow to your superior HoME knowledge. That is some right interesting information about Miriel.

[enismirdal]

LOL It was all research from the guys on rec.arts.tolkien - they really do their stuff. *always impressed* I just Googled and copy-pasted, I'm afraid!

[kaikias]

OK, I bow to their superior HoME knowledge and your superior research skills. *grin*

[kaikias]

I think the deal with Finwe is he wasn't necessarily one of the first bunch, as his name doesn't turn up at all in the Cuivienyarna, does it? He'd have to have been at Cuivienen to be one of the three ambassadors to Aman. The other thing is that sometimes people identify Finwe with Tata, probably a no-no if we're going on the Cuivienyarna and not pre-LotR material. I've seen discussions of the matter that throw out all manner of theories about Finwe maybe being a descendant of Tata and Tata maybe being the ancestor both of the Tatyarin Avari's leaders and of the lesser lords among the Noldor (and about Irime maybe being Voronwe's grandmother, so you know just how wild these theories are!).

And I don't think bringing in the Valar is a valid argument here-they were effectively figments of Eru's imagination that took on lives of their own. Kind of like puppets/muses, really. :)

[dawn_felagund]

I've never equated Finwe with Tata, nor have I ever heard anyone who did, so that is pretty amazing to me. But I guess there are all manner of theories out there.

I have always like Finwe to be Unbegotten but for purely artistic reasons. I can live with the canatic justification...but he will still be Unbegotten in my stories, although I do like the idea of awaking beside one's spouse, in terms of mythology anyway. As far as story-fodder goes, it is pretty undramatic to say, "We love each other because we were made to love each other." But that's the problem, I suppose, with approaching this material as a writer.

I suppose that I have always assumed that the appointed ambassadors would come from the original ones who awoke, and that is why Finwe has always been Unbegotten to me.

Thank you, as always, for your wonderful insight. I am convinced that I have the best flist on the planet! :)

[kaikias]

I rather agree with you, and given the reasoning set forth in other comments, it seems fairly likely Finwe was one of the original 144, even if maybe Ingwe, Elwe, Olwe and Elmo perhaps weren't. (Personally, I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of the appointed ambassadors being a younger generation, but then I've always been contrary about this stuff.)

[enismirdal]

LOL And I am sure I will learn a lot about bees in the next year - I have to investigate them for my degree project, with choice-chambers and allsorts! The project outline told us not to apply if we were allergic to bee-stings, so I guess I had better be careful with them! (Luckily bees seem to like me - I've been known to carry them on my finger and pet them...)

[dawn_felagund]

And here I thought I was the only weirdo to pet bees! ;D I used to pet bumblebees all the time when I was young. They're very soft :)

I've often heard the myth that "bees smell fear." I don't know about that, but I *do* know that when I squashed the one on Bobby's plate, her sisters came to investigate!

I would like to raise bees for honey someday. Poor Bobby, though, shudders at the thought. Guess I'll be going that one alone ;)

Your project sounds interesting, by the way!

[fanged_geranium]

BoLT 2 for Eol and Aredhel, I would guess (I haven't read it for ages, so I'm not sure) because Tolkien's elves were more inclined to 'deeds of lust' when he first wrote them.

Originally Feanor's father (Bruthwir) had a father (Maidros), but that was obviously before he became Finwe's second son. That's the only thing I can remember right now that hasn't been said already!

[fanged_geranium]

Another idea - if you're using sun years in the A of A, then Finwe is definitely one of the unbegotten because none of their descendents (if they had any) would be adults by the time Orome chose his ambassadors.

[dawn_felagund]

All good points. Thanks :)

I keep forgetting to tell you how much I enjoy your new icon!

I think I'm going to be asking for BoLT 1 and 2 for the holidays this year.... ;)

[fanged_geranium]

I made the icon because they served five courses of fish every day at my conference in Italy, although unfortunately there weren't any chips, and I had an inverse-Gollum moment!

Lost Tales aren't among my favourites in the HoME series, but that's probably because of all the Aelwine stuff. I might like them better if I read them again and skip the preambles.

[tarion_anarore]

I can't say I'm very partial to bees...Once I killed one out of sheer willpower. It was pretty crazy!

Yay for very early Christmas presents!! And for ice cream! I'm still holding out for a horse this Christmas, but I've been asking for one since I was about 3 and haven't gotten one yet...

As for the Silm questions...well, *draws another tally under "HoME is Evil"* I only have the Book of Lost Tales I. So pretty much, I have no idea. It could probably go either way, seeing as how there are two versions of so many of the stories in the Silm.

[dawn_felagund]

I can't say I'm very partial to bees...

You're in my husband's camp then! His famous saying, "If you don't get it away from me, Dawn, I'm going to kill it." And, of course, being a pacifist/vegetarian/pansy, I have it away from him :)

I'm still holding out for a horse this Christmas, but I've been asking for one since I was about 3 and haven't gotten one yet...

Yeah, I always used to ask for a horse too. I heard that our property wasn't zoned for a horse and that boarding was too expensive and yada-yada-yada...I'm just going to have to make lots of money selling ice cream and buy my own!

As for the Silm questions...well, *draws another tally under "HoME is Evil"*

Agreed. I probably make the canatics scream with this, but I take what I like from HoMe and leave the rest. But I *do* like to know where people's interpretation comes from. Kind of like knowing the rules before you break them, which incidentally, is one of my favorite rules in writing too ;)

[tarion_anarore]

"If you don't get it away from me, Dawn, I'm going to kill it."

I usually just let that sentence dangle. "If you don't get it away from me...."

I'm just going to have to make lots of money selling ice cream and buy my own!

LOL! I'll help you out and buy a cone or sixty. :)

I probably make the canatics scream with this, but I take what I like from HoMe and leave the rest.

*Whisper* Wait, you mean you're not supposed to do that?...;)

[dawn_felagund]

LOL! I'll help you out and buy a cone or sixty. :)

Nelyo's has a rule: If you come in and whisper the names of the seven Sons of Feanor to the owner, she will give you free ice cream.

If too many people start memorizing the names of the Feanorians just for that purpose, it will change to: You will get free ice cream if you whisper the names of the seven Sons of Feanor...in Quenya. ;)

*Whisper* Wait, you mean you're not supposed to do that?...;)

Well, that's what *I* do. But I'm liberal in most things...including my interpretation of canon!