Comments | dawn_felagund: The Finwë/Miriel Dilemma

dawn_felagund

The Finwë/Miriel Dilemma

Sep 21, 2005 10:13

Today has so far been a depressing day for me, and so I am compensating by becoming momentarily lost in a dilemma I have discovered that has absolutely no bearing on real life. Friends are losing friends (and pets--my condolensces to you, Juno) and my boss and I just had a long discussion about the state of the United States. Another hurricane is ( Read more... )

social science, opinion, fan fiction, silmarillion

Comments 31

frenchpony September 21 2005, 17:31:27 UTC

I find Miriel's fate interesting knowing that Tolkien was a veteran of the Somme and lived to see great changes in attitude in the field of psychology. To me, Miriel's problem looks like a combination of severe PTSD (known during WWI as "shell shock") and postpartum depression. You don't just snap yourself out of either illness, and both of them leave scars ( ... )

dawn_felagund September 21 2005, 17:52:34 UTC

To me, Miriel's problem looks like a combination of severe PTSD (known during WWI as "shell shock") and postpartum depression. You don't just snap yourself out of either illness, and both of them leave scars.

Interesting.... Since my chosen study was clinical psychology, I am a bit embarrassed to confess that this angle never occured to me before, but wholly agree that she does seem to fit the profile of postpartum depression. I have generally avoided the temptation attaching diagnoses to Elves, though, because of the biochemical components and the fact that I can't say that Elves have the same brain biochemistry as a mortal, since so much else about their biology seems to be so different.

I have always seen Miriel's malady as deriving from a damaged fëa, which of course, cannot be put into any terms equivalent to a mortal, since we are not fëa-based beings, as are Elves. Of course, with a damaged fëa, she had perhaps less a choice than even a mental condition, which does have hope for improvement over time.

I always wonder about ( ... )

1lady_so_divine September 21 2005, 23:55:55 UTC

I'm sorry hon**hugs**

dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 02:09:52 UTC

Thank you :) I'll survive! ;)

{{{{huggles back}}}}

Thread 12

tarion_anarore September 21 2005, 23:59:15 UTC

The way I understand it is, Miriel could have recovered. Maybe not quickly, but why choose to remain dead forever?

Imagine someone involved in a terrible accident, their organs damaged and much blood lost, their brain injured and their neck broken. Now, imagine standing beside their hospital bed and saying, "Just get up, damn it!"It seems to me that the situation was more like "I can help you recover." and the injured says "No, that's okay, I'd rather it be this way." It doesn't seem like she tried to recover at all ( ... )

dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 02:24:06 UTC

It seems to me that the situation was more like "I can help you recover." and the injured says "No, that's okay, I'd rather it be this way." It doesn't seem like she tried to recover at all.

See, I've never gotten the impression that a choice was involved. It seems to me that irreparable damage had been done...she had given too much to Feanor.

Just a different interpretation, I guess ;)

Perhaps Finwe was wrong to remarry, but had he not, things may have just turned out worse. His remarriage did not impact the release of Morgoth and I say that the silmarils would still have been created and eventually stolen.I don't blame Finwe at all. I don't *blame* anyone but the guilty person, and even then (as you know, from reading AMC ;D), the "blame" is confounded by a lot of factors. (Actually, I don't like "blame" at all because it all comes back to Arda Marred and the actions of Morgoth. Some of us blame the Valar, some Feanor, some Miriel or Fingolfin or Indis or Nerdanel, but it all comes back to Morgoth, really ( ... )

tarion_anarore September 22 2005, 03:34:55 UTC

See, I've never gotten the impression that a choice was involved. It seems to me that irreparable damage had been done...she had given too much to Feanor.

Just a different interpretation, I guess ;)

See, I always thought "Well, it's Valinor, right? Shouldn't all hurts be healed?" Anyway...

But isn't interpretation great?? :)

To play Devil's advocate (which I occasionally like to do, as you can see!), if Finwe had not remarried, stealing the Sils would have been difficult as Feanor would not have had a half-brother to threaten and get him banished to Formenos, and so Morgoth would have had to steal the Sils and murder Finwe in the middle of a crowded city. (Or just outside of one, according to Felak!canon ;D)

To continue with my half of being D.A., if Feanor's half siblings didn't exist, he'd have no reason to fear them, so he would be off his guard, perhaps making it just as easy for Morgoth to steal the silmarils. And, as you said, Morgoth was gonna find a way...

Of course not! That was me playing Devil's advocate, pointing ( ... )

dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 14:45:17 UTC

See, I always thought "Well, it's Valinor, right? Shouldn't all hurts be healed?"

I think this is true...in Arda Unmarred.

But I'd imagine a world that could permit the presence of a being like Ungoliant and the damage that she and Melkor caused could also have incurable hurts. (Because the damage to the Trees was, in a way, an incurable hurt.) I read somewhere once, I think, that the damage done to Miriel by Feanor's birth was believed to be a result of Arda Marred. It wouldn't have happened in the world as the Valar originally made it.

And I don't think that the Elves' spirits were really the jurisdiction of the Valar, at least in the total sense. (Canatics, please feel free to jump in if I am making an ass of myself!) They were made by Eru, and so I believe they would have also been able to be fully healed only by Eru. I don't know if this is entirely supported by canon, but it is my intuition.

To continue with my half of being D.A., if Feanor's half siblings didn't exist, he'd have no reason to fear them, so he would be off ( ... )

Thread 5

MIRIEL digdigil September 22 2005, 14:08:42 UTC

I guess it wasn't nice of me to say "I hate Miriel"and not explain why I said it. First, I was being stupidly glib, so "Stupid!Jenni!". But seriously, I am a mother, and as a mother, I know that I am the adult and my children are the children in the relationship. I do not put myself first. I put the welfare of my children first, both in the physical and the emotional sense. If I would choose to abandon them, I would have to learn to live with the criticism that I would engender afterward ( ... )

Re: MIRIEL dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 14:30:20 UTC

I guess it wasn't nice of me to say "I hate Miriel"and not explain why I said it.

Explanations aren't necessary; don't worry about it :) I just see trends and become fascinated by them. Unfortunately for my friends, they end up my experimental subjects >;-D

"Stupid!Jenni!".

Oh no! Please don't say that! I didn't intend for this post to make anyone feel stupid or wrong but just to note a trend that I have seen from reading way too much fan fiction. Some of the responses to "Lament," yes, underscored that trend, but really, no one's beliefs are wrong. This is just my opinion. (And unsupported by concrete research, might I add! ;D)

The thing I love about LJ and this group of friends that I have found is that something as innocuous as peoples' reaction to a character can spawn a whole new line of thinking that never occured to me before. I am so grateful for all of you because each comment makes me think, and I have learned so much about writing and Elves and life from our discussions! :)

However....postnatal depression is a ( ... )

MIRIEL digdigil September 22 2005, 15:52:44 UTC

Yeah, I keep forgetting that these Elves are not like us! *Elves are not like us, Elves are not like us, keep repeating it to self over and over*! And I've been trying to read HoME Vol 10 whenever I get a chance when I have a spare moment. LOL! I haven't yet come to the part about Finwe and Miriel, although I have looked ahead and skimmed through it a little bit. I can't quite get my head around the concept of fëa yet but I'll keep working on it. I just couldn't understand how Miriel could have left her son of her own free will, but maybe that's what Elves don't really have: free will. Fëanor seemed to have it, but he was also driven by other things. But the fëa that Iluvatar put into Elves: was that something that prevented them from, as humans can do, creating their own destiny?

Re: MIRIEL dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 16:20:52 UTC

Fëa is just the Elven word for "spirit."

My very bare understanding of it (because I've yet to read the "Anthrabeth" in 10) comes from "Laws and Customs among the Eldar" and has the Elves consisting of hroa (body) and fëa (spirit). Their hroar are given to them by their parents, in the same manner as human babies are made. Tolkien originally tossed around the idea that the fëar, likewise, came from a blend of the parents' fëar but rejected that idea and, instead, has each fëa specially made by Eru and given to the child.

Elves moreso than mortals are governed by their fëar, rather than their hroar. So, while this doesn't constrain free will, it means that they are not leashed by carnal or entirely bodily desires. This is why Elves are not unfaithful in marriage and why few deeds of lust are recorded among them. Their fëar are also bound to Arda and that is why they are destined or doomed--however you choose to look at it--to live as long as the life of the earth on the earth ( ... )

ELVES digdigil September 22 2005, 16:37:46 UTC

Elves aren't unfaithful in marriage? Oh God, I'll have to make sure I tag ALL of my stories "AU", if I haven't already!! Is a slash relationship unfaithful? (You know, if you're Celeborn and Finrod.)

Re: ELVES dawn_felagund September 22 2005, 17:49:45 UTC

According to the "Laws and Customs among the Eldar," Elves are *never* unfaithful in marriage. They can perceive from the eyes and voice of another if s/he is wed or not, and they feel no desire for those so taken. This hearkens back to the idea that their spirits control their bodies, and their spirits tell them it is wrong, and so they can resist, whereas a mortal might not.

Juno did an excellent analysis of canon in LaCE that I *highly* recommend. If you read the essay closely (as Juno points out), you can get around a lot of the canon issues.

Of course, this also requires asking: What is canon? I, for one, discount anything outside of LotR, the Hobbit, and the Sil. Others take HoMe more seriously, like fanged_geranium. Personally, if there is a tidbit in HoMe that I like (such as the bit about the Feanorian wives in the essay "Of Dwarves and Men") then I keep it, but I hardly feel bound by what HoMe says ( ... )