I think someone who did have the honest goal of improving young writers would go about it differently. You are right that there's more to it, and it's likely a snobbish, superiority thing. But most of the 'spoofs' are just a reaction to badfic in general, and are not aimed at a particular example (the MST3K of 'Legolas, Back to the Future' being an exception). So there are ways of letting off steam without flaming
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You still can be nice in a review and still offer concrit. Its all about the tone and the way you bring it. Making demands isn't one of them, that's for sure. For me there is a huge difference between acting like a beta and a reviewer. As a beta I am aiming to help the author to improve their skill with what I know and have learnt. Sometimes that is a journey together as well, as a reviewer I tell the writer how the story came across to me (yes this means muting your inner editor) and instead of summing up the typos you can gently say for example: I think it wouldn't hurt if you let someone else go over it. Or: I really loved your fluffy hobbits, to me it seemed that they were so captivated by the moment, that there is no thought for what will happen next (basically expressing why there wasn't a plot to me as a reader, but I still am not passing any judgement). As a writer you constantly grow, when you look back years later you will see the hops of improvement you made, its there! *shuts up now*
But there should be places in the world where people can post whatever they want....and ff.net is one such place. For this reason, I seldom go there without a rec, or unless I've read the author's work elsewhere.
That's me too. I use the site very little these days. I don't even find it particularly rewarding to put my stories up there since I tend to get praise for them but nothing particularly insightful. You wonderful people on LJ have me so spoiled. :)
And you know what? If ff.net was to decide tomorrow that they suddenly want to be a "quality fiction" archive a la HASA and begin requiring peer review of stories, a huge demand would be left unmet, and another "Pit of Voles" would be sure to follow. Or maybe FanLib would become more popular. ;)
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If
( ... )
"...or she secretly likes slash. I wonder?" When Homer attacked one of my slash stories (more than adequately rated and replete with warnings) she made comments which indicated she had, indeed, read the whole thing! Hahaha! If I run across someone describing disembowling of babies I have no problem stopping the story right there. End of problem!
Are there more Battling Bards wandering around again? The newest one I have come across is quite funny actually. hehe
Though you are so right, and these people are such hypocrites too. They accused you of being arrogant and snobby but they are being the same by perusing the categories of ffnet trying to bannish "bad" writers.
Is the New Bard the one you posted about a while back?
I think I'm one of the least arrogant and snobby people on the planet. I know that few people want to be thought of as arrogant and snobby, but I really don't think that I am.
The Battling Bard and her ilk got angry with me because they tried to treat me with the same lack of respect that they had already treated other authors on that site, and I would not stand for it. Instead of being cowed by them, I replied to their comments and exposed their narrow-minded idiocy for what it was. I do my best in real life as well as online to treat everyone I meet with respect, and so I insist about a modicum in return. If that makes me smug … well, smug I am, then. ;) And I'm still proud of that.
wooohooo! yea I'm thinking it is the same person I discussed some time ago whose forum you went on with your list of fun things about constructive criticism. :D that was just classic. they don't bother me too much, I mostly get a tickle and a giggle out of their comments to one another. keeps me very entertained when things are boring. ^_^
I occasionally engage in some borderline snarky discussions on a site (Garden of Ithilien) where I have often posted unfinished work for criticism and help. But that is principally with writers who have been doing this longer than me (and where I've often been knocked down a peg or two for my laziness and/or playng fast and loose with Tolkien's "morals"--but I did at least learn what POV is there). Anyway, my point is I started reading your headline "Thought on Literary Snobbery" and I think, "OMG she's talking about me!" But then I realized that--aside from the fact it is not always all about me something us sensitive writers sometimes have trouble remembering and also because, if I do engage in such activities it is in private or semi-private and with writers who are better than me or at least think they are...and are more than able to defend themselves
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I occasionally engage in some borderline snarky discussions on a site (Garden of Ithilien) where I have often posted unfinished work for criticism and help.
But that's so different from what flamers do. One of the writers whom I respect the most on my flist is also one with whom I've had discussions about writing that might, in the end, be accurately described as "teeth and nails." We both tend to be are stubborn and know that the other doesn't mind a spirited debate, so when we disagree, I suppose that it can look ugly to an outsider.
I will also challenge betas and reviewers on points with which I don't agree. Sometimes, this can reveal where the real problem is or help me to understand what I need to fix … or help them to understand why I don't. :)
But that's totally different from trashing a new or young writer simply to make myself look more impressive.
if I do engage in such activities it is in private or semi-private and with writers who are better than me or at least think they are...and are more than able to defend
( ... )
Mainstream and literary writers look down on those who pen "genre," dismissing it as plot-based, formulaic tripe.
My mom and I do a lot of ranting about this! (What's funny is when so many literary magazines say "We don't accept genre fiction" or "We only accept non-genre pieces," you have to wonder if "non-genre" is really a genre and they just don't want to admit it. Frankly, "non-genre" stuff all sounds the same to me... :P)
I suspect that this is a convenient way to become a "good writer" without ever having to actually become a good writer.
Heh heh, I can definitely understand this! I admit that sometimes I wonder if the only reason I'm a "good writer" is because I just talk a lot about writing. ;)
I totally agree with you and your mom that "literary" and "mainstream" are themselves genres. I think it was tehta who always used to talk about "New-Yorker-type stories." I used to laugh at this because I knew exactly what she meant!
The thing is that every "genre" has its own conventions and trends. Literary is no exception to that. And each has its quirks that are utterly annoying to an outsider.
For example, my next-door neighbor loaned me a novel written by an old girlfriend of his. It's literary. I decided to give it a shot and found my fingernails gouging my palms more often than not because one of her PoV characters is a stodgy blue-collar factory worker who is nonetheless prone to flights of rambling introspection and navel-gazing. I kept wanting to say to the author, "No one thinks this way! Even I don't think this way, and I'm a writer and more prone than usual to rambling, introspection, and navel-gazing!" But hey, some people like this. It's no worse than the sci-fi convention that stories are based on scientific concepts,
( ... )
Also, genre occurs on a continuum, and pretending otherwise is (imho) naïve.
Yes, indeed! Sometimes I think that some of my "sci fi/fantasy" stuff is only sci fi/fantasy because the characters have funny names and live on some place (and time, perhaps) where our history and culture (or knowledge of other cultures) doesn't apply (and sometimes I don't even mention it's on another world). It's not wholly "fantasy" because there's no magic or super unfamiliar creatures (or dragons or unicorns) or impossible things, and it doesn't fit the whole "futuristic machinery and space ships or science gone wrong" ideal of science fiction. I have a hard time saying, "It's fantasy/sci fi simply because that setting doesn't exist," since lots of "regular fiction" settings don't exist, either. So I guess the difference between "fiction" and "science fiction" or "fantasy" is simply "How close to our reality the story's world seems" or something? (But then I have to argue that a lot of "fiction" or "literary" stuff seems less real to me than the lives
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That's me too. I use the site very little these days. I don't even find it particularly rewarding to put my stories up there since I tend to get praise for them but nothing particularly insightful. You wonderful people on LJ have me so spoiled. :)
And you know what? If ff.net was to decide tomorrow that they suddenly want to be a "quality fiction" archive a la HASA and begin requiring peer review of stories, a huge demand would be left unmet, and another "Pit of Voles" would be sure to follow. Or maybe FanLib would become more popular. ;)
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If ( ... )
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Though you are so right, and these people are such hypocrites too. They accused you of being arrogant and snobby but they are being the same by perusing the categories of ffnet trying to bannish "bad" writers.
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I think I'm one of the least arrogant and snobby people on the planet. I know that few people want to be thought of as arrogant and snobby, but I really don't think that I am.
The Battling Bard and her ilk got angry with me because they tried to treat me with the same lack of respect that they had already treated other authors on that site, and I would not stand for it. Instead of being cowed by them, I replied to their comments and exposed their narrow-minded idiocy for what it was. I do my best in real life as well as online to treat everyone I meet with respect, and so I insist about a modicum in return. If that makes me smug … well, smug I am, then. ;) And I'm still proud of that.
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(You'll have to scroll down a bit but you can't miss mine ... I sorta ... ramble. XD)
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But that's so different from what flamers do. One of the writers whom I respect the most on my flist is also one with whom I've had discussions about writing that might, in the end, be accurately described as "teeth and nails." We both tend to be are stubborn and know that the other doesn't mind a spirited debate, so when we disagree, I suppose that it can look ugly to an outsider.
I will also challenge betas and reviewers on points with which I don't agree. Sometimes, this can reveal where the real problem is or help me to understand what I need to fix … or help them to understand why I don't. :)
But that's totally different from trashing a new or young writer simply to make myself look more impressive.
if I do engage in such activities it is in private or semi-private and with writers who are better than me or at least think they are...and are more than able to defend ( ... )
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My mom and I do a lot of ranting about this! (What's funny is when so many literary magazines say "We don't accept genre fiction" or "We only accept non-genre pieces," you have to wonder if "non-genre" is really a genre and they just don't want to admit it. Frankly, "non-genre" stuff all sounds the same to me... :P)
I suspect that this is a convenient way to become a "good writer" without ever having to actually become a good writer.
Heh heh, I can definitely understand this! I admit that sometimes I wonder if the only reason I'm a "good writer" is because I just talk a lot about writing. ;)
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The thing is that every "genre" has its own conventions and trends. Literary is no exception to that. And each has its quirks that are utterly annoying to an outsider.
For example, my next-door neighbor loaned me a novel written by an old girlfriend of his. It's literary. I decided to give it a shot and found my fingernails gouging my palms more often than not because one of her PoV characters is a stodgy blue-collar factory worker who is nonetheless prone to flights of rambling introspection and navel-gazing. I kept wanting to say to the author, "No one thinks this way! Even I don't think this way, and I'm a writer and more prone than usual to rambling, introspection, and navel-gazing!" But hey, some people like this. It's no worse than the sci-fi convention that stories are based on scientific concepts, ( ... )
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Yes, indeed! Sometimes I think that some of my "sci fi/fantasy" stuff is only sci fi/fantasy because the characters have funny names and live on some place (and time, perhaps) where our history and culture (or knowledge of other cultures) doesn't apply (and sometimes I don't even mention it's on another world). It's not wholly "fantasy" because there's no magic or super unfamiliar creatures (or dragons or unicorns) or impossible things, and it doesn't fit the whole "futuristic machinery and space ships or science gone wrong" ideal of science fiction. I have a hard time saying, "It's fantasy/sci fi simply because that setting doesn't exist," since lots of "regular fiction" settings don't exist, either. So I guess the difference between "fiction" and "science fiction" or "fantasy" is simply "How close to our reality the story's world seems" or something? (But then I have to argue that a lot of "fiction" or "literary" stuff seems less real to me than the lives ( ... )
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God, I cracked up when I saw that. Someone hit the nail on the head...
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