I think someone who did have the honest goal of improving young writers would go about it differently. You are right that there's more to it, and it's likely a snobbish, superiority thing. But most of the 'spoofs' are just a reaction to badfic in general, and are not aimed at a particular example (the MST3K of 'Legolas, Back to the Future' being an exception). So there are ways of letting off steam without flaming!
Yes, there are sites with standards, where they will not let you upload anything until it's gone through at least a grammar check. And others put limits on adult material, or worse yet, the dreaded Mary Sue ;). But there should be places in the world where people can post whatever they want....and ff.net is one such place. For this reason, I seldom go there without a rec, or unless I've read the author's work elsewhere. But it's good to know that it is there and waiting, should I ever want to check it out.
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If you don't want to read about the girl with the purple eyes, killer wardrobe and punky attitude wowing the elves of Mirkwood....then don't.
I would not flame a writer, I hope. I might choose not to comment, or rather focus on one thing they did well. Or maybe point out something in the story that 'surprised' me or seemed out of character. But I know how vulnerable it makes you to post work for the world to see, and I would hate to dash the hopes of a beginning writer. The first story I wrote had no plot. It was 'yea! hobbits!' and I just wrote it to have fun. I sent it to a beta (whose stories I admired), and she very gently pointed out to me that not much seemed to be happening in my story. I nearly cried - and I was over 21 when that happened! But I took her advice, edited the story (a bit, not nearly as substantially as it needed), and then posted it. I think my next story was better, though I am still just a beginning writer.
So, keeping that in mind, I try to be careful with my criticism, and not offer more than is wanted. But that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes! Maybe the author wanted to write fluff, and wasn't trying to make the scenario believable. My pointing out that things seemed a little too 'convenient' wouldn't go over well, and I should just shut up. One time I overstepped this bound was when someone basically advertised a vanity-press 'original' novel in a forum discussing all types of books (ie, not fanfic)...which was extremely derivative of LotR, and riddled with typos. I pointed out 8 on the first two pages, without being asked to. My intent was to be constructive, and I bit my tongue (hard)...but I think I was supposed to say 'yay you wrote a book that's wonderful!!!' Even if he was offering his book for sale.
But I find that this tendency to be 'nice' in reviews means that I might be dishonest, and say what I really think elsewhere. I'm not sure that bad-mouthing someone behind their back is any more polite than flaming...it's just less direct. So maybe I should be more careful about that. For instance, if ever I have to explain to someone what a Mary Sue is, I generally link to an example. I much prefer being a beta, so that I can gush about the wonderful parts of a story while still pointing out 'this part made no sense,' or 'this smacks of authorial insertion.'
You still can be nice in a review and still offer concrit. Its all about the tone and the way you bring it. Making demands isn't one of them, that's for sure. For me there is a huge difference between acting like a beta and a reviewer. As a beta I am aiming to help the author to improve their skill with what I know and have learnt. Sometimes that is a journey together as well, as a reviewer I tell the writer how the story came across to me (yes this means muting your inner editor) and instead of summing up the typos you can gently say for example: I think it wouldn't hurt if you let someone else go over it. Or: I really loved your fluffy hobbits, to me it seemed that they were so captivated by the moment, that there is no thought for what will happen next (basically expressing why there wasn't a plot to me as a reader, but I still am not passing any judgement). As a writer you constantly grow, when you look back years later you will see the hops of improvement you made, its there! *shuts up now*
But there should be places in the world where people can post whatever they want....and ff.net is one such place. For this reason, I seldom go there without a rec, or unless I've read the author's work elsewhere.
That's me too. I use the site very little these days. I don't even find it particularly rewarding to put my stories up there since I tend to get praise for them but nothing particularly insightful. You wonderful people on LJ have me so spoiled. :)
And you know what? If ff.net was to decide tomorrow that they suddenly want to be a "quality fiction" archive a la HASA and begin requiring peer review of stories, a huge demand would be left unmet, and another "Pit of Voles" would be sure to follow. Or maybe FanLib would become more popular. ;)
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If you don't want to read about the girl with the purple eyes, killer wardrobe and punky attitude wowing the elves of Mirkwood....then don't.
Thank you. I agree 100% with both points that you make here.
First, I would love for some of the holier-than-thou in the fanfic community to spend a day in the "real writing" world. In the workshop I belong to, generally writers will offer as a courtesy warnings about anything bothersome in their story because someone is about to take a huge chunk of time critiquing it. They don't want that reader to spend hours being squicked; it's only fair. But I've read magazines and anthologies where gruesome stories or stories involving sexual abuse just leap right out at you. No warnings. So I wish fanficcers would realize how spoiled they are that most sites require warnings for every little squick, and all sites that I know of require ratings.
Secondly--and I've told this to more than one moron on the Pit of Voles--even organisms lacking a central nervous system can learn a basic avoidance response. So it really says something about one's intelligence when she claims to be disgusted by slash (for example) and yet reads every slash story posted with aplomb. Either she's less intelligent than an invertebrate slinking through the mud at the bottom of the Chesapeake Bay or she secretly likes slash. I wonder?
"...or she secretly likes slash. I wonder?" When Homer attacked one of my slash stories (more than adequately rated and replete with warnings) she made comments which indicated she had, indeed, read the whole thing! Hahaha! If I run across someone describing disembowling of babies I have no problem stopping the story right there. End of problem!
I would not flame a writer, I hope. I might choose not to comment, or rather focus on one thing they did well. Or maybe point out something in the story that 'surprised' me or seemed out of character. But I know how vulnerable it makes you to post work for the world to see, and I would hate to dash the hopes of a beginning writer.
I can't see you flaming a writer, especially based on this comment. :) And it's one thing to offer concrit or suggestions--I'll do that sometimes when I know that the writer wants it--and another to tell someone to kill herself to spare the rest of the world the pain of reading her writing.
Generally, unless I know the person and that s/he wants concrit, I will ask first if only for the selfish reason of not wanting to waste my time on critiquing a story that the writer doesn't intend to revise. I have several stories that I don't ever want to look at again. I never turn down concrit, if the reviewer wants to give it, but I also don't want a reviewer spending an hour on feedback that I'm never going to use. And personally, if it's posted on a site outside of LJ or SWG, I've probably been revising it for around a year. So concrit is always welcome but not always used.
But I find that this tendency to be 'nice' in reviews means that I might be dishonest, and say what I really think elsewhere. I'm not sure that bad-mouthing someone behind their back is any more polite than flaming...it's just less direct. So maybe I should be more careful about that. For instance, if ever I have to explain to someone what a Mary Sue is, I generally link to an example.
Hmmm … I still tend to think that a private email to you along the lines of "omg did you see the crap that she put up on ff.net?!?!" is preferable to leaving her a comment along the lines of, "Save the rest of us from your sh*t and go play in traffic during rush hour." ;)
Personally, I do my best not to talk about even people whom I don't like in public forums. I think that my posts on the Battling Bard remain the first--and only--time that I've broken that rule.
But in private correspondence with friends, or flocked/filtered posts, I will sometimes name names. :)
Yes, there are sites with standards, where they will not let you upload anything until it's gone through at least a grammar check. And others put limits on adult material, or worse yet, the dreaded Mary Sue ;). But there should be places in the world where people can post whatever they want....and ff.net is one such place. For this reason, I seldom go there without a rec, or unless I've read the author's work elsewhere. But it's good to know that it is there and waiting, should I ever want to check it out.
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If you don't want to read about the girl with the purple eyes, killer wardrobe and punky attitude wowing the elves of Mirkwood....then don't.
I would not flame a writer, I hope. I might choose not to comment, or rather focus on one thing they did well. Or maybe point out something in the story that 'surprised' me or seemed out of character. But I know how vulnerable it makes you to post work for the world to see, and I would hate to dash the hopes of a beginning writer. The first story I wrote had no plot. It was 'yea! hobbits!' and I just wrote it to have fun. I sent it to a beta (whose stories I admired), and she very gently pointed out to me that not much seemed to be happening in my story. I nearly cried - and I was over 21 when that happened! But I took her advice, edited the story (a bit, not nearly as substantially as it needed), and then posted it. I think my next story was better, though I am still just a beginning writer.
So, keeping that in mind, I try to be careful with my criticism, and not offer more than is wanted. But that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes! Maybe the author wanted to write fluff, and wasn't trying to make the scenario believable. My pointing out that things seemed a little too 'convenient' wouldn't go over well, and I should just shut up. One time I overstepped this bound was when someone basically advertised a vanity-press 'original' novel in a forum discussing all types of books (ie, not fanfic)...which was extremely derivative of LotR, and riddled with typos. I pointed out 8 on the first two pages, without being asked to. My intent was to be constructive, and I bit my tongue (hard)...but I think I was supposed to say 'yay you wrote a book that's wonderful!!!' Even if he was offering his book for sale.
But I find that this tendency to be 'nice' in reviews means that I might be dishonest, and say what I really think elsewhere. I'm not sure that bad-mouthing someone behind their back is any more polite than flaming...it's just less direct. So maybe I should be more careful about that. For instance, if ever I have to explain to someone what a Mary Sue is, I generally link to an example. I much prefer being a beta, so that I can gush about the wonderful parts of a story while still pointing out 'this part made no sense,' or 'this smacks of authorial insertion.'
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That's me too. I use the site very little these days. I don't even find it particularly rewarding to put my stories up there since I tend to get praise for them but nothing particularly insightful. You wonderful people on LJ have me so spoiled. :)
And you know what? If ff.net was to decide tomorrow that they suddenly want to be a "quality fiction" archive a la HASA and begin requiring peer review of stories, a huge demand would be left unmet, and another "Pit of Voles" would be sure to follow. Or maybe FanLib would become more popular. ;)
Unlike other genres, fanfic is very meticulous about warnings. So, I don't have to read mpregs and rape fics if I don't want to. If a flamer did not heed the warnings...it's their own stupid fault. Usually, a Mary Sue story is recognizable from the description or the first few pages. If you don't want to read about the girl with the purple eyes, killer wardrobe and punky attitude wowing the elves of Mirkwood....then don't.
Thank you. I agree 100% with both points that you make here.
First, I would love for some of the holier-than-thou in the fanfic community to spend a day in the "real writing" world. In the workshop I belong to, generally writers will offer as a courtesy warnings about anything bothersome in their story because someone is about to take a huge chunk of time critiquing it. They don't want that reader to spend hours being squicked; it's only fair. But I've read magazines and anthologies where gruesome stories or stories involving sexual abuse just leap right out at you. No warnings. So I wish fanficcers would realize how spoiled they are that most sites require warnings for every little squick, and all sites that I know of require ratings.
Secondly--and I've told this to more than one moron on the Pit of Voles--even organisms lacking a central nervous system can learn a basic avoidance response. So it really says something about one's intelligence when she claims to be disgusted by slash (for example) and yet reads every slash story posted with aplomb. Either she's less intelligent than an invertebrate slinking through the mud at the bottom of the Chesapeake Bay or she secretly likes slash. I wonder?
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I would not flame a writer, I hope. I might choose not to comment, or rather focus on one thing they did well. Or maybe point out something in the story that 'surprised' me or seemed out of character. But I know how vulnerable it makes you to post work for the world to see, and I would hate to dash the hopes of a beginning writer.
I can't see you flaming a writer, especially based on this comment. :) And it's one thing to offer concrit or suggestions--I'll do that sometimes when I know that the writer wants it--and another to tell someone to kill herself to spare the rest of the world the pain of reading her writing.
Generally, unless I know the person and that s/he wants concrit, I will ask first if only for the selfish reason of not wanting to waste my time on critiquing a story that the writer doesn't intend to revise. I have several stories that I don't ever want to look at again. I never turn down concrit, if the reviewer wants to give it, but I also don't want a reviewer spending an hour on feedback that I'm never going to use. And personally, if it's posted on a site outside of LJ or SWG, I've probably been revising it for around a year. So concrit is always welcome but not always used.
But I find that this tendency to be 'nice' in reviews means that I might be dishonest, and say what I really think elsewhere. I'm not sure that bad-mouthing someone behind their back is any more polite than flaming...it's just less direct. So maybe I should be more careful about that. For instance, if ever I have to explain to someone what a Mary Sue is, I generally link to an example.
Hmmm … I still tend to think that a private email to you along the lines of "omg did you see the crap that she put up on ff.net?!?!" is preferable to leaving her a comment along the lines of, "Save the rest of us from your sh*t and go play in traffic during rush hour." ;)
Personally, I do my best not to talk about even people whom I don't like in public forums. I think that my posts on the Battling Bard remain the first--and only--time that I've broken that rule.
But in private correspondence with friends, or flocked/filtered posts, I will sometimes name names. :)
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