Comments | claritylit: the DawnEden abortion discussion, if it deserves that term

claritylit

the DawnEden abortion discussion, if it deserves that term

Aug 31, 2005 00:32

I went to this woman's blog following a disgusted link from raincitygirl. She wrote the following entry in response to an article which states that a fetus at 28 weeks exhibits crying behavior: tears and what the pediatrician described as a trembling bottom lip ( Read more... )

Comments 13

minim_calibre August 30 2005, 22:22:16 UTC

28 weeks is third trimester, and the stage where about 90% of neonates will survive outside the womb with proper NICU care. I believe most doctors and researchers are fairly certain that a third-trimester fetus/premature baby feels pain, but are much fuzzier about the second trimester ( ... )

thestickywicket August 30 2005, 22:44:41 UTC

Third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and almost exclusively because the fetus has a condition incompatable with life

Seriously, I wish it were possible to get the rabid anti-choicers to make their peace with this fact. The impression you'd get listening to them is that thousands upon thousands of moral relativist harlots are out there getting themselves pregnant through irresponsibility and whorish behavior, then getting an abortion the week before they're due to deliver, because they've decided they'd rather not have a baby. ::headdesk::

IIRC, abortion for non-medical reasons is only permitted pre-viability.

::nods:: Casey v. Planned Parenthood modified Roe, so now under federal law, the states cannot place an "undue burden" on a woman's right to choose an abortion before viability. Examples -- states cannot require a married woman inform her husband or receive his consent because it would be an undue burden; states cannot require parental consent forms for pregnant minors without providing a judicial option (i.e ( ... )

minim_calibre August 30 2005, 23:00:53 UTC

Thanks! That's what I thought, but I was too lazy to Google for it (I was typing off the top of my head while trying to get my four month old to go to sleep).

My mother's a nurse. She's worked ER during periods of time when abortion wasn't legal. I may personally find it troubling, but I've heard enough horror stories to know damn well that making it illegal isn't the answer, isn't going to stop it, and is going to wind up killing a lot of young, scared, and poor women.

claritylit August 31 2005, 09:10:54 UTC

28 weeks is third trimester
Duh. I can do that math this morning. Last night was another story.

That just makes her point even more ridiculous. Like a seriously pregnant woman can just waltz in to any old doctor's office and waltz out un-pregnant.

As a pedantic point, crying isn't the same as tears. The tear ducts aren't mature until several weeks after birth in a term delivery.
Ooh, that's really interesting. That makes me wonder what these doctors actually saw during the ultrasound. I might have to go back and read the article again, even though it seems to me to have been written from a definite pro-life standpoint. The only detail I remember is the guy who emphasize the lip-tremble. Maybe the only other thing to see is face scrunching. I just braved the article again, and it didn't even say what else they saw. What kind of reporting is that?

minim_calibre August 30 2005, 22:26:08 UTC

Oh, and pregnancy dating, because I've seen pro-life signs be very misleading and using dating from conception instead of standard dating, dates from the last period, which is usually a good two weeks before conception. So when they say, "I could do X 23 weeks from conception!", it's 25 weeks in terms of pregnancy dating, thus pushing the fetus into viability.

raincitygirl August 30 2005, 22:51:21 UTC

Brava ( ... )

raincitygirl August 30 2005, 22:52:41 UTC

Oh, and you know what made me pro-choice, oddly enough? Dirty Dancing. I was 11, 12 when it came out, and there was that subplot with the dancer who was pregnant and trying to get an abortion. Being 1963, it was illegal, and it got botched. The hero and heroine get there to find her haemmoraging in her room, refusing to allow anyone to call an ambulance because if she goes to hospital they'll call the cops. The heroine's father is a doctor, so she convinces him to patch the girl up and not tell anyone about it. He risks lose his license, his ability to support his family, if anyone finds out, all because he helped this girl who was bleeding out on her bed ( ... )

claritylit August 31 2005, 10:23:24 UTC

Dirty Dancing
::snorts:: Children of the eighties. Life lessons from movies. It worked, though, didn't it?

Now that I think about it, I don't remember having any issues with abortion one way or the other. I don't remember specifics about a lot of my childhood for some reason. (Matt thinks that's a sign of abuse, except that he's *met* my parents and they sure didn't abuse me. I didn't spend any time at a friendly neighbor-man's house, either. Just a quirk of the brain chemistry, I guess.)

I think maybe because I learned about the birds and the bees from a children's book called Where Did I Come From, I didn't see the fetus as anything but a product of the parents. [OMG, that book is still in print!] And so if the parents decided they didn't want to grow and raise this product, that was their decision. Abortion has always seemed to me to be a fact of life rather than a choice or an issue. Some people aren't ready to or aren't able to have and support children. That's all. So if they make the choice to abort that child, ( ... )

raincitygirl August 31 2005, 16:32:57 UTC

I went through a stage of being very pro-life from the age of 8 or so until Dirty Dancing changed my life (snicker), mostly as a result of my mother's influence. She suffered three very bad miscarriages in a row, all in the first trimester, and was very upset over that.* She became passionately pro-life for a while, but eventually developed an attitude similar to mine. She's more adamant about how she really, really, REALLY thinks abortion at any stage is a bad thing, but nevertheless supports the pro-choice movement politically. Not that she sends them money, but she'd never vote for a pro-life candidate for office ( ... )

Thread 5

thestickywicket August 30 2005, 22:57:35 UTC

We come to my least favorite of DawnEden's talking points. Abortion is a rapist's best friend because it destroys the evidence.

I've heard this assertion a few times from anti-choicers, and I remain utterly and completely baffled. Just... I don't get it. I really don't.

DawnEden replies to some stuff Noumena wrote. "Noumena, regardless of your speculation, Roe vs. Wade makes abortion legal until birth, with no restrictions allowed during the first trimester. It is up to states to decide the circumstances in which abortion may be restricted after the first trimester. In many if not most states, a woman may receive an abortion at 28 weeks for any reason."

Here, she's flat-out lying. Roe isn't really the controlling Supreme Court decision anymore; it's Casey. Under Casey, the states may not unduly burden a woman's choice to get an abortion before viability. It's not a trimester framework. Further, it is utter bullshit to say that in "many if not most states," woman can get abortions on demand at 28 weeks. I'm not in the mood to ( ... )

claritylit August 31 2005, 10:43:14 UTC

Here, she's flat-out lying.
Frankly, I think it's more likely that she's taking as gospel some sort of pro-life propaganda. Which to me is worse than lying, because if she were lying, she'd at least *know* she was wrong, whereas here, she's crazy and delusional.

the nine-year-old rape victim in Nicaragua
Oh, my, I remember reading about that a while ago. The article I read didn't mention criminal prosecution, only the excommunication. How anyone could think it preferable for a nine-year-old to carry and give birth to a child, I don't know. That one seems pretty easy in my mind. I can't even imagine a skinny little body sucking down its own nutrients to provide for a baby that surely would have health problems just from being gestated in a body that immature. And I fail to understand the government's position that the girl's life would be in danger if she had an abortion. Unless they waited so long that it was a later-term procedure.

Anyway. Great rant! :)Thanks, I think! It took hold of me at about 9 pm, and just wouldn't ( ... )

thestickywicket August 31 2005, 13:01:00 UTC

> Here, she's flat-out lying.
Frankly, I think it's more likely that she's taking as gospel some sort of pro-life propaganda.

Right, I should have said -- she's flat-out lying or she's being lied to. Not sure which one is worse, probably the intellectually uncurious "being lied to." Reminds me muchly of a certain president. ::headdesk:: Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true -- but it does persuade the disinterested that it's true.

I remember reading about that a while ago. The article I read didn't mention criminal prosecution, only the excommunication.

::nods:: There was a publicity push where a South American feminist organization circulated a petition for people to volunteer to be ex-communicated along with the parents. I think the church failed to follow through on that particular threat.

I fail to understand the government's position that the girl's life would be in danger if she had an abortion.Scare tactics, I'd guess. Oh, her poor tiny body can't take the procedure -- of course, that would suggest ( ... )