the DawnEden abortion discussion, if it deserves that term

[claritylit]

I went to this woman's blog following a disgusted link from raincitygirl. She wrote the following entry in response to an article which states that a fetus at 28 weeks exhibits crying behavior: tears and what the pediatrician described as a trembling bottom lip

Comments

[minim_calibre]

28 weeks is third trimester, and the stage where about 90% of neonates will survive outside the womb with proper NICU care. I believe most doctors and researchers are fairly certain that a third-trimester fetus/premature baby feels pain, but are much fuzzier about the second trimester.

Pregancy timelines: up through week 12 is generally considered first trimester. The fetal period begins with week 10 (it's an embryo before that). The vast majority of abortions for reasons unrelated to health or fetal deformation occur within that period. Yes, there's a brain at three months.

The second trimester, roughly weeks 13-26, is the transition period to viability, which is legally, I believe, defined as 23 or 24 weeks (micropremies). IIRC, abortion for non-medical reasons is only permitted pre-viability. Most abortions performed in the second trimester are related to fetal deformaties that may or may not be incompatable with life--testing for those happens at 10 weeks at the earliest, if it happens at all. After 20 weeks, pregnancy loss is no longer considered a miscarriage, but a stillbirth. Additional reasons for a late second trimester abortion include threats to the health of the mother, such as the onset of severe pre-eclampsia before viability.

Third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and almost exclusively because the fetus has a condition incompatable with life and the danger of childbirth is too great to simply induce the inevitable stillbirth.

Err. I'm not sure you actually *needed* to know any of that, but it might be helpful when speaking to a more reasonable version of DawnEden in the future.

As a pedantic point, crying isn't the same as tears. The tear ducts aren't mature until several weeks after birth in a term delivery. (Term is 40 weeks, plus or minus 2.) I think I first noticed Lillian's eyes getting moist when she was 6 weeks old.

[thestickywicket]

Third trimester abortions are exceedingly rare, and almost exclusively because the fetus has a condition incompatable with life

Seriously, I wish it were possible to get the rabid anti-choicers to make their peace with this fact. The impression you'd get listening to them is that thousands upon thousands of moral relativist harlots are out there getting themselves pregnant through irresponsibility and whorish behavior, then getting an abortion the week before they're due to deliver, because they've decided they'd rather not have a baby. ::headdesk::

IIRC, abortion for non-medical reasons is only permitted pre-viability.

::nods:: Casey v. Planned Parenthood modified Roe, so now under federal law, the states cannot place an "undue burden" on a woman's right to choose an abortion before viability. Examples -- states cannot require a married woman inform her husband or receive his consent because it would be an undue burden; states cannot require parental consent forms for pregnant minors without providing a judicial option (i.e., the minor can seek the permission of the court if, say, it's her father's baby). /legal geekage. Heh.

[minim_calibre]

Thanks! That's what I thought, but I was too lazy to Google for it (I was typing off the top of my head while trying to get my four month old to go to sleep).

My mother's a nurse. She's worked ER during periods of time when abortion wasn't legal. I may personally find it troubling, but I've heard enough horror stories to know damn well that making it illegal isn't the answer, isn't going to stop it, and is going to wind up killing a lot of young, scared, and poor women.

[claritylit]

28 weeks is third trimester
Duh. I can do that math this morning. Last night was another story.

That just makes her point even more ridiculous. Like a seriously pregnant woman can just waltz in to any old doctor's office and waltz out un-pregnant.

As a pedantic point, crying isn't the same as tears. The tear ducts aren't mature until several weeks after birth in a term delivery.
Ooh, that's really interesting. That makes me wonder what these doctors actually saw during the ultrasound. I might have to go back and read the article again, even though it seems to me to have been written from a definite pro-life standpoint. The only detail I remember is the guy who emphasize the lip-tremble. Maybe the only other thing to see is face scrunching. I just braved the article again, and it didn't even say what else they saw. What kind of reporting is that?