jgraeme2007
in
ci5hq
The Reading Room -- NOVEMBER by Sebastian
http://www.thecircuitarchive.com/tca/archive/18/november.html
Or
http://www.oblique-publications.net/archives/2note/4_2Qnovemberredone.pdf
Original Publication: ...As Two £3 Notes, Oblique Publications, 1991
I have a special fondness for Discovered in a Graveyard stories. Partly because I think the episode is one of the best and most complex (even if ( Read more... )
Or
http://www.oblique-publications.net/archives/2note/4_2Qnovemberredone.pdf
Original Publication: ...As Two £3 Notes, Oblique Publications, 1991
I have a special fondness for Discovered in a Graveyard stories. Partly because I think the episode is one of the best and most complex (even if ( Read more... )
Comments 50
So my first impression upon finishing. . .crappy story. What was the actual point? Doyle was fine as a snarky SOB but he became almost whiney and ridiculous with his doubting everything. Neither seemed capable of speaking a sentence of truth and then the op that should have cemented their desire to really get to the Old Bones and instead, they're cold baby boys. This is no where close to my Bodie and Doyle.
The air was never cleared, their intent remained frozen inside the immature minds of Bodie and Doyle. I would rather read a great characterization by a weak author than a crappy story by an author that most folk consider a master.
2nd reading wasn't much different.
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Well, the actual point of the story, for me, is that Doyle and Bodie have reached the November of their CI5 lives and are either going to settle into a cold winter of discontent -- and ultimate death -- or are going to break the pattern, change their lives and their relationship and...live long enough to see Christmas.
I mean, I don't want to stretch the metaphor too far.
It's certainly one of Sebastian's bleaker stories, and it is a little uneven in places, but mostly I really like it.
Here's what she said about it at Zeropanic:
Autumn, winter, Christmas... magical seasons for lovers. The bleak and bitter chillness of their lives: the warmth inside - locked in and safe with siege provisions against the encroaching dark This whole story is a metaphor! Or maybe I'm a pretentious twit and it was just November when I wrote it. I have to say i was shocked by the bleakness of this post-Graveyard story when I read it after a long gap; but also pleased with the way it captures a ( ... )
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No! Really! Your comments are sometimes better than the story itself! Very convincing! ;-)
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I do love talking about writing and stories, that's true enough! *g*
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To me, the tension between them, the way that they're reluctant to acknowledge or act on what they feel and each half-angry at the other one for making him feel it, the way Bodie's haunted by death and Doyle feels emasculated by his near-death and unwilling to show any fear--that all feels right. These are not uncomplicated men, and there's a lot of darkness in them. There has to be, given the job they chose and the things it makes them do. The flaring tempers and sudden quarrels that are just as suddenly ended ring true to Bodie and Doyle's canonical relationship, too. They make the moments of affection, of communion, all the more powerful. I love this ( ... )
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Yes. THIS.
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And this is what makes these such fascinating characters to write and read about. The complexities and contradictions. They are giggling boys and ruthless killers. They are moral men who will do immoral things. They tease each other and clown for each other and they lash out, even punch the other. Far more interesting (and realistic) I think.
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Thank you for offering your insights then. It's great hearing new voices (or any voices!) in these discussions, and I think the best conversations about these stories are the ones with a variety of opinions.
But since the first commenter hated the story, I have to pipe up to say I liked it a lot. The early part isn't very successful, I think,
I kind of like the weird contrast of the pink coccoon room and the bleak outside and dangerous world.
but as the emotional situation gets more fraught and complicated (starting when they pick up the girls in the bar) it just gets better and better.
Yes, we begin to see how really twisted and tangled things have become between them.
To me, the tension between them, the way that they're reluctant to acknowledge or act on what they feel and each half-angry at the other one for making him feel it, the way Bodie's haunted by death and Doyle feels emasculated by his near-death and unwilling to ( ... )
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Excellent! Both in that it was a first time for you and that you enjoyed it.
And, I will say that while I am definitely in the Sebastian camp, not every one of her stories works as well for me. The Siren series is problematic for me, I don't understand or follow a lot of Wonderful Tonight -- although in both cases I do reread and enjoy them, which I guess is the ultimate test of whether a story works or doesn't? Assuming you're the re-reading kind.
I liked this a lot. I could see and hear the lads. I liked the angst that was kept in its place and not allowe to overrun ( ... )
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J said: I agree. Now, personally, I've always get the itch to rework that last sentence (this is the problem with writers, isn't it?) but I have no better line in mind, and it is such a telling line
See, I was okay with this ending. But I'm not a reader who needs, or a writer who does, spell out every single thing by The End. I like a happy ending, so I got that. I also like the ending settled, rather than ambiguous (generally, exceptions are out there, of course). To me, the end was settled with them making their decision to be together from that second onward. I don't need to see them having dinner or sex or even talking about what they'll do now, because I got everything here in those last words. My brain took me to a happy place, so I was satisfied by the end that all was well.
And J kindly said: You did a very clever DiaG story yourself, as I recall. "Fire and Ice." Was that it?Thanks so much. I think every Pros writer has a DIAG (or a dozen) in them. That was my "kat was watching way too much Life on Mars" story! LOL! I ( ... )
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I agree. I like where she ended it. In fact, I have trouble picturing them beyond that moment. It's the actual wording of the line. I'm not sure what it is? The word "began"? The sentence doesn't work without it. I don't know. A personal quirk.
And J kindly said: You did a very clever DiaG story yourself, as I recall. "Fire and Ice." Was that it ( ... )
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The day was dreary, a dark grey lowering
I love Sebastian’s work and I love this story but for some reason whenever I think of it I always associate it with depression rather than with the usual hefty dose of melancholy which is so often a part of her style (even with the more humourous stories where it's often a bitter-sweet kind of humour). So I’ve been trying to work out *why* I remember this story in the way that I do and more so than her other stories. Maybe it’s the time of year (and that ominous choice of title): that bleak month when we’re all waiting to get Christmas over and done with; or the fact that much of the story takes place in a rundown hotel room and is slightly claustrophic (and yet they seem to find it cosy and can shut out the world but I don't see it that way); maybe there's too much emphasis (inevitable in a confined space?) on their - at times - self-destructive relationship? Maybe the backbiting isn't balanced enough with sweeter sentiments so that at ( ... )
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I agree that it is probably her darkest work. Darker than Velvet Underground, which always seems just a bit stagey and contrived to me (though such beautiful writing and imagery).
So I’ve been trying to work out *why* I remember this story in the way that I do and more so than her other stories. Maybe it’s the time of year (and that ominous choice of title): that bleak month when we’re all waiting to get Christmas over and done with;
HA! Or for the warmth and comforts and love of the season? I think you're right about the choice of title, though. November can still go either way. Into dead of winter or the brightness of the holidays. Now if she'd named it February...*g*
or the fact that much of the story takes place in a rundown ( ... )
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Me too.
And I love the way she just drops certain things into the story and brings the reader back to earth with a vengeance:
Doyle was not yet thirty-five years old.
Yes. That's a jolt. Doyle feels so old, he frets about the coming winter -- his coming winter. And he's not even forty. Not even thirty-five!
Anyway, sorry to ramble and I'm sure I've missed some points but I just wanted to point out that although I can and do love this story, for some reason I've always regarded it in a different way to other Sebastian stories. Thanks for the rec and review! Thanks as always for your ( ... )
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I suppose I've always thought that other people might have thought that The Same River was her darkest, or most disturbing story, but it’s one I love and, dare I say, I think it’s a story which does possess elements of hope and happiness.
The pink cocoon! Yes. It's cozy and stifling at the same time. But that cocoon is forcing them to face things they might not confront if they were able to get away from each other.
Good point - hadn’t thought of it in that way.
I think you're right. They're edgier -- the foundation is in canon, but this Doyle is more edgy. Not cruel.
I agree. He’s quick to lose his temper but just as quick to regret it and apologise and his temper is never cruel or pre-meditated.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a favorite Sebastian story? I think I'd probably pick The Homecoming if I had to choose just one. Although I love so many ( ... )
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To be true - I’m torn.
Yes it is ‘beautiful and unsettling’! I would even say beautiful and sombre.
I agree. It is a sombre piece.
Beautiful are such passages: “...he was dangerous, aggressive and chancy by nature, out on the edge just the way you had to be to be a leader in their underworld, not a victim. It was that face of Bodie Doyle was looking into now, the knife in his eyes.”
Hehe!! A leader in their underworld…. :-)
Some of her descriptions of them are unparalleled, I think.
But the main mood is depressive and always rejecting, and uncertain, never sure of nothing, fewest of Doyle’s feelings.
They are never really happy.
No, it's true. We don't see them simply and unqualifiedly happy -- although there may be a promise of that to come in the end.
And another bloody operation Susie. Cowley at his worst.
He's GOT to stop sniffing that roses and lavender!
And then the end…
Do I get it right? After that disaster they don’t see each other for three weeks??? That gives me pause too. They've both been ( ... )
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I'm glad too!
But I'm not so sure about that 'positive ending'.
Nothing is clear with Cowley, nothing with another idea of living. But that could be all solved - but I'm not sure if the Bodie and Doyle from this story could manage their relationship!?
I don't mean that they are OOC - but they are further over the edge... - well you described it so nicely : "is that Doyle and Bodie have reached the November of their CI5 lives" . But it seems those Bodie and Doyle have reached the end of their strength too.
(Avoiding each other for three weeks... I really can't believe it...)
I just hope they see your twinkling Christmas lights... Sigh!
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Nothing is clear with Cowley, nothing with another idea of living. But that could be all solved -
That part of it is solved I think in that if Doyle has had a heart attack (which it sort of sounds like)he's finished on the A Squad. And Bodie was already prepred to walk away even before his hand is shot to ribbons. Plus in that meeting Sebastian makes a point of saying none of them talk about the future, which I take to mean...something. That their future is in some doubt as far as CI5 goes.
but I'm not sure if the Bodie and Doyle from this story could manage their relationship!?
That's the scary part. Although she does say wherever they go it will be together.
I don't mean that they are OOC - but they are further over the edge... - well you described it so nicely : "is that Doyle and Bodie have reached the November of their CI5 lives" . But it seems those Bodie and Doyle have reached the end of their strength too ( ... )
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